Poll

The RCN has its old rank titles and executive curl back.  What should be the next step for the CF rank structure?

Nothing.  The current rank system works, so leave it alone.
120 (58.5%)
Complete return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.
40 (19.5%)
Complete return to post unification ranks of the 70s and early 80s.
1 (0.5%)
Officers only return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.
9 (4.4%)
Copy the UK rank system - it is the prototype anyway.
17 (8.3%)
Copy the US rank system - they are the new colonial master.
2 (1%)
Create a whole new Canadian system.
8 (3.9%)
Lobby for standardized NATO rank insignia.
7 (3.4%)
Copy the French rank system - it is the other founding nation's turn
1 (0.5%)

Total Members Voted: 204

Author Topic: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation  (Read 1918319 times)

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5700 on: March 17, 2017, 10:02:09 »
The Egg and Beans wear dress Blues... not Blacks :)
And technically, Italian Carabinieri are para-military, even if they dress up military-like sometimes ... ;D

 
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5701 on: March 17, 2017, 11:58:43 »
I have seen officers wearing berets, not often, but I have.  If the peak cap was, in any way shape or form, comfortable, I wouldn't mind wearing it, but Christ, Logistik seems to think the human head is the shape of a dowel.  I want to stab myself in the eyes with a fid to stop the misery after about 10 minutes.  There used to be such things as hat forms/blocks to mould hats maybe if we had 50 mission hat stomp fests it would help.  At the very least, it would be enjoyable exercise.

One of the first hats I ordered had a slip in it with instructions to remove the ring from the hat once you get it as it was a packing aid to keep the hat getting mangled during shipping.  Once I did that it was pretty comfortable (but still a plastic white hat, which is generally stupid for ships).  I normally try to hang onto it to throw back in when I need to travel somewhere with the cap in luggage, but have been less successful.  Once that's out though, you can shape the hap to fit your head properly.

I actually think the beret looks better than the peak cap with the short sleeves, so tend to wear it in the summer.  Plus it drives some senior officers up the wall, so the **** disturber in me enjoys that.  You can imagine the effect on blood pressure if I was to combine that with parade boots; that might clear out a whole lot of room for promotion!  Fortunately nothing in the fleet needs addressed, so we can spend time worry about stuff like this which would otherwise stop ships from going to sea.... Pieces of flair for everyone! Huzzah!

Something of a non sequitor, but not sure why the parade boots are an NCM thing; day to day the shoes are more comfortable but the boots do look a lot better on parade.


Offline FSTO

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5702 on: March 17, 2017, 12:52:39 »
I actually think the beret looks better than the peak cap with the short sleeves, so tend to wear it in the summer.  Plus it drives some senior officers up the wall, so the **** disturber in me enjoys that.  You can imagine the effect on blood pressure if I was to combine that with parade boots; that might clear out a whole lot of room for promotion! 

So you're one of those guys.  :rage:
I wore my beret on basic and it hasn't seen the light of day since.

I've taken the ring out my hat since day one. Very comfy (for me at least) and gives a bit of that rumpled look.


Offline bLUE fOX

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5703 on: March 17, 2017, 13:36:13 »
Fortunately, all that's in for a major revamp:

Sorry. I didn't realize the actor of article I posted was from a troubled individual. The gist of it is that uniforms, badges, drill and flags are going to be redesigned with GBA+ in mind. You can find it on the National Post website.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 13:53:42 by bLUE fOX »
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5704 on: March 17, 2017, 13:40:06 »
And technically, Italian Carabinieri are para-military, even if they dress up military-like sometimes ... ;D

 

Nothing "para" about the Carabinieri; they are actually part of the Ministry of Defence.
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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5705 on: March 17, 2017, 16:36:56 »
Nothing "para" about the Carabinieri; they are actually part of the Ministry of Defence.
True, but some consider them paramilitary because of all the civilian policing they do.  Italians I know think of Carabineri as civvy cops first (based on their dealings with them, admittedly) who do military tasks.  Even the French name for the RCMP -- "Gendarmerie royale du Canada" -- appears to be based on the Mounties' way more military functions earlier in their history.

All that to say -- black uniforms can look good  ;D
“Most great military blunders stem from the good intentions of some high-ranking buffoon ...” – George MacDonald Fraser, "The Sheik and the Dustbin"

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

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Offline mariomike

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5706 on: March 17, 2017, 17:01:57 »
All that to say -- black uniforms can look good  ;D

I like very dark blue. Very dark. But, not black.

LAPD has a beautiful uniform, in my opinion. "They're not black. They're very, very, very dark blue."

The National Assn. of Uniform Manufacturers and Distributors bestowed "Best Dressed Large City Police Department in the United States" honors on the LAPD.

It also helps if those who wear the uniform maintain high grooming standards, maintain their uniforms ( sharp creases and a shoe shine ) and watch their weight.

I also like that they don't wear shoulder badges or anything on their epaulets. A very simple, clean cut, urban look that hasn't changed much since 1940.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 17:59:15 by mariomike »

Offline Quiet~One

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5707 on: March 17, 2017, 22:15:52 »
So. Kinda like all the socks except for true priest's socks?

Offline Pusser

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5708 on: March 20, 2017, 16:00:38 »
That's because they can't read  ;D: Here is, taken at random, the label inside my DEU trench coat (they are all the same) "Coat, All Weather, Man's S.D., Sea, Black".

 :nod:

Hmmm. I would argue that the folks at Logistik who put the uniform together got the labeling wrong.  A lot of people seem to think that current RCN uniforms are black, while conceding that pre-1968 RCN uniforms were navy blue.  In fact, the pre-1968 RCN dress instructions specifically say that the uniform is BLUE.  However, if one were to compare both pre-1968 RCN uniforms to current RCN uniforms, one could plainly see that they are in fact, the same colour (which I will, for all the non-traditionalists's sake, call black).  Nevertheless, notwithstanding the wavelength of the light waves reflected off of the material (the way colour is technically defined), the traditional colour of naval uniforms around the world is "blue," even though to most people it looks like black.  Logistik has no sense of history or tradition.

As for the proposed adoption of navy blue berets by some branches of the Army, the blue they likely have in mind will no doubt be a lighter shade and will most definitely be identifiable as blue.  At least that's the current case in the British Army.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5709 on: March 20, 2017, 16:01:56 »
To the best of my knowledge, new caps are coming to the RCN.  They will have removable cloth covers and should be more comfortable (i.e. not round).
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5710 on: March 20, 2017, 16:52:08 »
Far from me to argue with such an illustrious person as you, Pusser ... but:

My naval uniforms are from a time when Logistiks was not even a gleam in your dad's eyes. They are the original brand new issue of naval DEU from the Mulroney government's decision implementation time. So don't blame things on logistiks.

And yes, pre-unification uniforms were (royal) navy blue, and after three washes, all of a different colour, which is why, when the uniforms were re-introduced in the 1980's, a decisions made to go to all black, even though we call them navy blue, because it retains its exact hue without differential fading and each batch can be consistent - something near impossible even today with navy blue dyes.

Don't let pictures, taken on black and white film fool you as to what hue of blue existed at the time, and if you have actual colour pics from those pre-unification days of a whole platoon of sailors, then you will notice right away the incredible different colours of their navy blue dress.

In this, we are not alone: The US Navy, the Japanese Maritime self-defence force and the Russian navy all use black, for the very reasons I gave above.
 

Offline Pusser

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5711 on: March 20, 2017, 18:05:16 »
The use of black for navy blue long predates the Mulroney era DEU project.  In fact several folks writing on the subject, even before the green uniform was introduced, pointed out that black was used because it was an easier colour to match than any shade of dark blue they could produce (funny how the air force didn't seem to have this problem).  Nevertheless, they still called it "navy blue."  And no, I have never relied upon B&W or even colour photographs on this one.  A stroll through the Naval Museum of Halifax and confirm it as well as the authentic pre-1968 RCN uniform I have in my basement - dated 1958 and cleaned many times.
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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5712 on: March 20, 2017, 19:33:34 »
Battledress also could vary between lots and between products from various manufacturers and also fade as it aged.

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5713 on: March 20, 2017, 19:42:05 »
The only reason the RAF and later RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF etc, etc have the blue they do today is that there was a cancelled order for uniforms for the Czar's 1917 pre-Revolutionary Calvary.  There was all this damn blue cloth sculling about and it was decided to use it for the new  uniforms of the soon to be created RAF.  As I understand.

Offline Lightguns

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5714 on: March 21, 2017, 07:25:32 »
The only reason the RAF and later RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF etc, etc have the blue they do today is that there was a cancelled order for uniforms for the Czar's 1917 pre-Revolutionary Calvary.  There was all this damn blue cloth sculling about and it was decided to use it for the new  uniforms of the soon to be created RAF.  As I understand.

I had to research that.  You are correct BUT the original blue cloth was pale light blue like the US SKY BLUE but lighter.  An officer, John Slessor who was later promoted to Marshal of the RAF, described it as "a nasty pale blue with a lot of gold over it, which brought irresistibly to mind a vision of the gentlemen who stands outside the cinema".  Somewhere along it became darker and the gold braid was changed to black, gray and blue, which, is likely quite understandable given the English gentlemen officers' propensity to despise display of rank in the field.
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Offline Pencil Tech

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5715 on: March 21, 2017, 09:30:00 »
So really it might be more accurate to refer to the colour that the upcoming RCEME, RCA, Sigs and RCE berets will be as "midnight blue" which is how the colour of berets that those branches in the British Army wear is referred to (in the British Army), and since that is the model in this case after all. Because in fact, when used in a naval context, navy blue is, and always has been, indistinguishable from black.

There, I've cleared that up for everybody. You're welcome.

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5716 on: March 21, 2017, 15:28:58 »
The only reason the RAF and later RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF etc, etc have the blue they do today is that there was a cancelled order for uniforms for the Czar's 1917 pre-Revolutionary Calvary.  There was all this damn blue cloth sculling about and it was decided to use it for the new  uniforms of the soon to be created RAF.  As I understand.

Actually, the RAAF has varied from the RAF/RCAF/RNZAF blue to midnight blue, and back again.  The current version is the dark blue, like below.

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Offline slayer/raptor

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5717 on: March 21, 2017, 21:06:28 »
The new blue beret will look terrible with CF Green DEUs.

Offline bigzoomie

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5718 on: March 22, 2017, 00:48:28 »
The new blue beret will look terrible with CF Green DEUs.

Well clearly, the only solution is to change the colour of the green DEUs!

 ;D
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Offline Old EO Tech

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5719 on: March 22, 2017, 02:12:27 »
The new blue beret will look terrible with CF Green DEUs.

Maybe but it will look fine with the dark blue patrol dress :P


Offline MCG

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5720 on: March 22, 2017, 02:27:03 »
Because more costume uniforms is where we should be spending money as we cancel training and perma-park equipment due to lack of funds?

Offline George Wallace

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5721 on: March 22, 2017, 05:40:16 »
The new blue beret will look terrible with CF Green DEUs.

No worse than the Black, Maroon, Tan, Red, Orange and Green ones worn already.
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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5722 on: March 22, 2017, 06:54:37 »
No worse than the Black, Maroon, Tan, Red, Orange and Green ones worn already.

Not to mention the assortment of Scottish (and Irish) headgear also worn in DEU.

Canada has 16 Scottish regiments while Scotland has to make do with only 3 -- I don't know how our ally can make do with so few, perhaps we should export our knowledge of ridiculous hats back to the old country.

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5723 on: March 22, 2017, 07:20:20 »
Not to mention the assortment of Scottish (and Irish) headgear also worn in DEU.

Canada has 16 Scottish regiments while Scotland has to make do with only 3 -- I don't know how our ally can make do with so few, perhaps we should export our knowledge of ridiculous hats back to the old country.

As for me, wake me up when I can sign for my shako.

To be fair The Highlanders perpetuate 3 regiments; The Gordons, The Seaforths, and The Camerons.  Ours are an odd assortment of regionally based units, some have adopted the beret but we could do with a unification and standardization of highland dress in the CF.
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Online Ostrozac

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Re: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
« Reply #5724 on: March 22, 2017, 07:27:22 »
To be fair The Highlanders perpetuate 3 regiments; The Gordons, The Seaforths, and The Camerons.

The Highlanders were amalgamated into the Royal Regiment of Scotland over ten years ago, and the whole of the RRS wears the same headdress, although each battalion wears a different coloured hackle.

During the same time period, Canada has gone from 15 Scottish regiments to 16, with the re-establishment of the Cape Breton Highlanders.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 07:36:42 by Ostrozac »