Poll

The RCN has its old rank titles and executive curl back.  What should be the next step for the CF rank structure?

Nothing.  The current rank system works, so leave it alone.
120 (58.5%)
Complete return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.
40 (19.5%)
Complete return to post unification ranks of the 70s and early 80s.
1 (0.5%)
Officers only return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.
9 (4.4%)
Copy the UK rank system - it is the prototype anyway.
17 (8.3%)
Copy the US rank system - they are the new colonial master.
2 (1%)
Create a whole new Canadian system.
8 (3.9%)
Lobby for standardized NATO rank insignia.
7 (3.4%)
Copy the French rank system - it is the other founding nation's turn
1 (0.5%)

Total Members Voted: 204

Author Topic: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation  (Read 1884648 times)

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Veteran`s son

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Should the rank of Lance Corporal be part of the CF rank structure again?

Instead of having three ranks for a Private there would then be Private Untrained, Private Trained and Lance Corporal.

Of course, the exceptions are Engineers, Armoured, and Artillery who have the ranks of Sapper, Trooper and Gunner for the rank of Private Trained.

What is everyone‘s opinion on this question?

Fader

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2003, 21:02:00 »
The rank structure isn‘t broke, why fix it?

Offline ~RoKo~

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2003, 21:04:00 »
Wouldn‘t lance corporal just be a pretty name and a lot of paperwork to change?

Offline Ditch

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2003, 21:09:00 »
Q: Re-introduce Lance Corporal?

A: No, not required.


If we re-introduced Lance Corporal, wouldn‘t we then have to get rid of Master Corporal?  In the days of Lance Corporals and the like, the Corporal rank was the first leadership rank.  That is why on ceremonial dress MCpl‘s wear two chevrons, indicating the rank of Corporal which is/was the same rank.  Confused yet?  Let‘s just leave the present rank structure the way it is.
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2003, 21:50:00 »
Lance Corporal is not a rank, it is an appointment.

Lance Corporal does NOT equal a Master Corporal!

In the old system, you had

Privates
Corporals
Sergeants

A private could be appointed Lance Corporal; he wore one chevron and was generally 2 i/c of a section.

A corporal wore two chevrons and was a section commander.

A corporal could be appointed Lance Sergeant, he would wear three chevrons and was generally a weapons crew commander or similar position.

They got rid of the Lance Corporal and Lance Sergeant appointments, and instead created the appointment of Master Corporal.  A Master Corporal is considered a command rank like the old Corporal position; THEN you needed a junior NCO course to be a corporal.  NOW you need the junior NCO course to be a master corporal.

The Corporal of old was thus equal to the Master Corporal of today in terms of authority and command powers.

Lance Corporal was a weird in between kind of a thing, and while technically considered a full fledged NCO, I don‘t believe he was all that well respected in actual practice.  The Lance Corporal then and the Corporal now are in effect the same thing - a position with no real command power and little actual authority, though to a new private, today‘s corporal is a bit better at getting attention than the Lance Jack of old.
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Offline Jungle

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2003, 21:57:00 »
Quote
The rank structure isn‘t broke, why fix it?
Well, maybe it could use a little fixin‘... Mcpl is not a rank, it is an appointment within the rank of Cpl. Strange, considering the rank of Cpl is nothing more than a well-paid Pte, and Mcpl is the first Leadership appointment. The difference in pay is also a joke. We make fun of the number of Sgts in the US Army, but find another Army where a Rifleman (or it‘s equivalent) can be of 3 different ranks (Pte(B), Pte(T) and Cpl).
There was a study about 10 years ago to get rid of the Mcpl appointment. Not a bad idea, today‘s Cpl would be Pte(T) with the Cpl‘s pay, and Cpl would become the first Leadership rank, replacing the Mcpl. Of course it didn‘t come through, as half the Army complained about losing one chevron and being called a Pte again, some for the rest of their career...
Personally, I think we should have done it, and simplify the rank structure.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2003, 22:47:00 »
Yes,
We should change the titles of all Cpls to LCpl, all MCpls to Cpl, and take thousands of $ from the Sea King replacement to make it possible.  Or . . .

we could stick to priorities.  

However, maybe there is room for changes to the rank structure.  Consider the Warrant Officer ranks of the US military.  These are intended for technical trades that require some level of authority to carry out their jobs.  Instead of a third tier in the CF rank structure, could a similar effect be created by establishing appointments, which may be given to members of specific MOCs, and various ranks?  (LCpl, MSgt, etc?)  Typically, these appointments would not be required once an individual is involved in management duties related to their MOC, so they would not exist at the rank of WO or up.

 
Quote
Did master corporals not originally have section commander duties? When did the change to sergeant section commanders take place?
I thought the change took place when the ranks came into effect after unification.  But, there are a lot of MCpl who are Sect Comds now and Cpl who are Sect 2ic. Perhapse it is a symptom of the CFs ability to retain leaders.

Offline Marauder

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2003, 23:41:00 »
As McG pointed out, I have often seen cases where master jacks are sect cmdrs, and a long serving corporal gets informed on the Friday night that he is gonna be 2ic for the weekend. Our last ex, we had one of the longer serving Sgt as our PL OC, another long service Sgt as the PL WO, a Sgt who got promoted last May running one section, two MCpls running sections, and all three section 2ics were Cpls. Weps Det was also run by a Cpl.
Granted, our "usual" OC (it changes for ex to ex) was on a jump crse and we only have 1 WO left in the unit (who is on Roto). This highlights how well adapted we have become, with everyone being able to work one or two up as need be.

While the rank structure may not be the same as it was "back when it was hard", I really don‘t see a need to jumble **** everything AGAIN when, as other pointed out, we have bigger targets to take down first. I think part of the problem is we spend so much time on continual reorg that never focuses on changing the things that NEED to be changed.
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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2003, 00:39:00 »
I personally think rank of Corporal as currently used in CF is good, in terms of defining section chain of command.

If the section commander (sergeant) and the 2i/c (master corporal) get whacked, then the senior corporal takes charge.
Eliminates confusion to see who‘s senior among privates to see who‘s in charge, IMO.

However, I think rank of corporal should be earned, not just given away like it is right now.

I thought Brits had Colours Sergeant, not Staff Sergeant.

Also, Korean army has 3 grades of privates and corporal (or equivalent to). Usually you go up a rank every 6 month of your two year conscription.
And lots of bossing around. But that‘s army.  :D

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2003, 18:21:00 »
If I remember correctly,the rank of M/Cpl came in about mid 76, not on Unification 67,68.
 I remember all the Cpl.‘s putting up there new hook‘s when the change came in and the discussion‘s about the new rank.As I had just joined the Engineer‘s that April,76.
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Offline Jungle

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2003, 20:22:00 »
Quote
 The JNCO course they took was actually called "Infantry Section Commander Course" then, which qualified them for Master Corporal
The ISCC was qualifying us 5B and 6A in one 16-week course. So yes, all Infantry Mcpls were qualified as section comds, and up to the rank of Sgt.
McG, I don‘t think they would need to take anything away from the Sea King replacement project (if in fact there is such a project) to make changes to the rank structure. They could take a few million $$$ a year from all those social experiments the govt imposes on the CF...  ;)
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Veteran`s son

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2003, 22:28:00 »
Speaking of the CF rank structure, it is interesting that not many regiments have another rank for Trained Private(Engineers, Armoured and Artillery are a few exceptions). Do I understand this correctly?

In everyone‘s opinion, should all regiments/units have another rank for Trained Private?

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2003, 23:30:00 »
A lot of infantry regiments do have a separate rank for trained privates, depending on regiment.

Like, fusilier, rifleman, etc.

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2003, 00:06:00 »
Guardsman is another rank title for privates in Guards units.  

I‘ve seen Piper and Drummer used also, but only unofficially.
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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2004, 00:35:00 »
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/ranks/responsibilities.htm

I‘ve added the above page to my site, I‘m wondering if I could have some input from those who know better than me what I‘ve gotten right or wrong - or missed altogether?

TIA
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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2004, 04:25:00 »
Here in Australia, we have the LCPL and LBDR ranks w/ one hook. Then CPL, SGT, (SSGT was removed about 8 yrs ago), then WO2 and WO1. Officer rank is in pips of the British system.

Its good to remain in tradition here, and I love it. It gives Army a distinction all in its own, as each Service has its own rank structure (RAAF and RAN).

I belive that installing the LCPL back in the Cdn system would cause the whole system to be overhauled, and hence $$$$$.

LCPL/LBDR here in Australia is = to CPL in the CF system. CPL/BDR here is = to the Cdn MCPL/MBDR.
CPL/BDR‘s here take an intense course similar to the old CLC JLC ISCC types back in Canada which I do believe were still ongoing when I left the CF in 1995.


Here CPL/BDR‘s are section commanders, and LCPL/LBDR‘s are 2 I/C‘s. SGT‘s are PL SGT‘s, etc.

In Corps such as Engr‘s Sigs, and Arty, for a trg‘d PTE they use SPR, SIG,and GNR.

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Offline xFusilier

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2004, 05:59:00 »
The problem that was caused by unification was that the Army used rank to recognize leadership responsibilities only, and used pay levels to recognize technical competency.  Thus it was possible to stay a private soldier for your entire career, having your competency as a tradesman recognized through pay levels.  Thus a Craftsman with 21 years service could have a higher technical qualification than the Cpl. he worked for.

Upon unification, the problem came about that the RCAF and the RCN had used thier rank structure to identify technical skill as well as leadership.  A Leading Seaman had a higher trade qualification than an AB, same in the RCAF.  The compromise was to create make the rank of Corporal as a journeyman rank in the CF.

tmbluesbflat

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2004, 09:32:00 »
prior to unification, it was private recruit, private trained higher rate, private, Lcpl, Cpl,Lsgt, Sgt, Ssgt, Wo11, Wo1, Officer cadet etc
Wo1 or rqmsi, RSM is or was a designated appointment

Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2004, 10:59:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by tmbluesbflat:
[qb] prior to unification, it was private recruit, private trained higher rate, private, Lcpl, Cpl,Lsgt, Sgt, Ssgt, Wo11, Wo1, Officer cadet etc
Wo1 or rqmsi, RSM is or was a designated appointment [/qb]
Is Lance Sergeant also not an appointment held by a corporal, though?  Lance Corporal as well.

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2004, 12:30:00 »
In addition to my general question three posts ago, some specific questions:

What is a "Battle Captain"?  I presume this is an armoured regiment thing - I‘ve also seen reference to a "Battle Adjutant" (for infantry?)  Can anyone expand on these for me?

When did "QMSI" (Quartermaster Senior Instructor) enter the lexicon?  What about TQMS (Technical Quartermaster Sergeant)?

I do have some good info for artillery units‘ officer‘s positions, but if anyone can expand on what a "Tech Able" was and some of the NCO positions in a gun battery or troop, I would appreciate it.
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Offline Nerf herder

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2004, 12:44:00 »
A Battle Captain in an Armoured Squadron in the attack is in charge of the fire base during the attack phase of an objective. He along with the FOO direct arty, air and armour fire onto the objective whilst the manouevering forces slide in for the final blow.

During the advance he is in control of half of the squadron..the OC is in control of the other half.

The reason for this is a combat team takes up a frontage between 1.5 and 4 km depending on the ground. A frontage that big is just too large for the OC to control, so the Battle Captain is there as his eyes and ears on the other half of the battle.

The squadron 2 IC is in charge of the administration of the squadron. He along with the SSM ensure the beans and bullets get up to the troops in an effective manner.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2004, 13:13:00 »
It certainly does, Franko, thanks.  So is the Battle Captain part of the standard establishment of the squadron?  Is this his only role, or is he a troop commander double-hatted?
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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2004, 13:17:00 »
No. The BC‘s job is primarily that. He is not a troop leader(job of a LT). It is standard that every squadron has one. His secondary role is to take command if the OC is nocked out in battle. The 2IC is usually in the rear with the gear so to speak.

Regards
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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2004, 16:18:00 »
The TQMS in the Armoured world is the RSM in waiting...at least in my Regiment

Regards
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Re: Review of CF NCM Rank Structure?
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2004, 16:42:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by Franko:
[qb] The TQMS in the Armoured world is the RSM in waiting...at least in my Regiment

Regards [/qb]
Is he a Master Warrant Officer, then?
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