Author Topic: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax  (Read 13988 times)

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Offline gryphonv

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The protest in question:
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/cornwallis-protest-chief-grizzly-mama-canada-day-1.4187445

This involves 5 guys in Halifax ( I think 3 or 4 are in the military). In the videos they never identified themselves as military but the 'protesters' have started outing them on Facebook, trying to raise hell.

There was a short video posted on facebook I can't seem to link. In it they only giver their names and then the people who posted it attached a big story which is impossible to prove or disprove from the video.

Longer video with a little more context.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4eBFo3Hx0U


It don't seem to be covered currently by the media except for a side note, but this has blown up locally on Facebook. And as usual many people joined the bandwagon with pitchforks and torches. I wouldn't be surprised to see it in the local news tomorrow, with a negative spin towards the military.

I'm not condemning or condoning anything this group may have done but from the video I don't see much. The protesters took exception to the Red Ensign. I've seen a few military superiors on Facebook comment on the ones who are members saying things like 'they are idiots' etc. Which I feel is wrong for a superior to do it publicly, especially without giving the people a chance to defend themselves.

Social media has been quick to label these guys 'white supremacists' though from the video I don't see anything that suggests that. Now there are some questionable behavior that can look bad going forward they are all wearing the same shirt which gives them the image of being part of a group. Apparently they admit they are part of 'Proud Boys' something I don't know much about but this is the official shirt it seems.

I imagine a great deal of crap is going to hit these guys at work tomorrow. I'm curious what they could be charged with as the videos don't show them being aggressive at all, more so the 'protesters'.

Some side context, a lot of the same 'protesters' in the video have shown up over the years here in Halifax at different protests like Occupy from a few years back. It seems they keep looking for things to post videos off to try to start a firestorm, unfortunately these guys gave them something.


Edit:

Here is the original video which sparked the firestorm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9gEAHukudk



« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 14:04:00 by gryphonv »

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2017, 14:31:05 »
The protest in question:
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/cornwallis-protest-chief-grizzly-mama-canada-day-1.4187445

This involves 5 guys in Halifax ( I think 3 or 4 are in the military). In the videos they never identified themselves as military but the 'protesters' have started outing them on Facebook, trying to raise hell.

There was a short video posted on facebook I can't seem to link. In it they only giver their names and then the people who posted it attached a big story which is impossible to prove or disprove from the video.

Longer video with a little more context.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4eBFo3Hx0U


It don't seem to be covered currently by the media except for a side note, but this has blown up locally on Facebook. And as usual many people joined the bandwagon with pitchforks and torches. I wouldn't be surprised to see it in the local news tomorrow, with a negative spin towards the military.

I'm not condemning or condoning anything this group may have done but from the video I don't see much. The protesters took exception to the Red Ensign. I've seen a few military superiors on Facebook comment on the ones who are members saying things like 'they are idiots' etc. Which I feel is wrong for a superior to do it publicly, especially without giving the people a chance to defend themselves.

Social media has been quick to label these guys 'white supremacists' though from the video I don't see anything that suggests that. Now there are some questionable behavior that can look bad going forward they are all wearing the same shirt which gives them the image of being part of a group. Apparently they admit they are part of 'Proud Boys' something I don't know much about but this is the official shirt it seems.

I imagine a great deal of crap is going to hit these guys at work tomorrow. I'm curious what they could be charged with as the videos don't show them being aggressive at all, more so the 'protesters'.

Some side context, a lot of the same 'protesters' in the video have shown up over the years here in Halifax at different protests like Occupy from a few years back. It seems they keep looking for things to post videos off to try to start a firestorm, unfortunately these guys gave them something.


Edit:

Here is the original video which sparked the firestorm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9gEAHukudk

They are all members of the RCN , with two members who are apparently in the release process. From what I have seen they showed up at an aboriginal protest on Canada day waving the red ensign. I believe the aboriginals are protesting Edward Cornwallis as someone who committed genocide against their ancestors. From what I have seen on the video it was pretty tame. The commander of MARLANT has been informed and I suspect an investigation will be conducted into their membership of the Proud Boys and actions, which is a right wing group based in the US.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2017, 14:42:17 »
Saw this on Facebook, and someone had linked to an "anti-racist Canada" Blog. In it, they stated the Red Ensign was the Canadian equivalent of the Confederate flag. They also stated that the ceremony was to remember MMIWG that were "murdered by the Canadian state". :facepalm:

Poor choice to go stir up crap with those crowd, but they were threatened with assault after just standing there. Despite the social media outcry, I really don't see how they'll get anything other than a talking-to about appropriate life choices. They didn't even identify as CAF members.

Also, one of them is a member of the CA, they all show up in the GAL on Outlook if the names are correct.


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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2017, 14:46:59 »
Saw this on Facebook, and someone had linked to an "anti-racist Canada" Blog. In it, they stated the Red Ensign was the Canadian equivalent of the Confederate flag. They also stated that the ceremony was to remember MMIWG that were "murdered by the Canadian state". :facepalm:

Poor choice to go stir up crap with those crowd, but they were threatened with assault after just standing there. Despite the social media outcry, I really don't see how they'll get anything other than a talking-to about appropriate life choices. They didn't even identify as CAF members.

Also, one of them is a member of the CA, they all show up in the GAL on Outlook if the names are correct.

I agree however in this day and age, I suspect the consequences for them will be great.
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Offline ballz

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2017, 14:47:58 »
Remedial measures for conduct are easy on this one (to what level is a matter of judgement), beyond that I am unsure what else could be done.

Why are remedial measures for conduct easy? Because their conduct was not what was expected of a professional member of the Canadian Armed Forces. In other words, deliberately trolling a (apparently) peaceful protest. Their actions shine a negative light on the Canadian Armed Forces, which is very easy to see / prove on the balance of probabilities. Therefore, their conduct was below standard.

This is not much different from Lauren Southern trolling Slutwalks, which was a negative reflection on the LPoC.

In any case, I don't think it's unfair to call them a bunch of idiots without a trial.
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Offline gryphonv

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2017, 14:55:43 »
Remedial measures for conduct are easy on this one (to what level is a matter of judgement), beyond that I am unsure what else could be done.

Why are remedial measures for conduct easy? Because their conduct was not what was expected of a professional member of the Canadian Armed Forces. In other words, deliberately trolling a (apparently) peaceful protest. Their actions shine a negative light on the Canadian Armed Forces, which is very easy to see / prove on the balance of probabilities. Therefore, their conduct was below standard.

This is not much different from Lauren Southern trolling Slutwalks, which was a negative reflection on the LPoC.

In any case, I don't think it's unfair to call them a bunch of idiots without a trial.

Yeah I was thinking Conduct Unbecoming, but couldn't see much else.

I'm pretty sure this will fade away as soon as those 'protesters' get the next 'travesty' to catch on film. It's sad the state of the world we live in when people like them can threaten another person life/livelihood with little to no context.

Say what you want about them, they get away with a lot of stuff because people think ignoring them is better than calling out things you don't agree with.

 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 15:02:42 by gryphonv »

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2017, 15:03:04 »
Conduct unbecoming is an American charge. NDA 129 or QR&O 130.60 is Conduct prejudice of good order and discipline.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-02/ch-103.page#cha-103-60
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Offline gryphonv

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 15:06:25 »
Conduct unbecoming is an American charge. NDA 129 or QR&O 130.60 is Conduct prejudice of good order and discipline.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-02/ch-103.page#cha-103-60

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 15:09:57 »
I'm not sure 129 is a valid option here as I don't fully see the military nexus. That being said, Remedial Measures are absolutely the way to go.
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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2017, 15:15:27 »
I'm not sure 129 is a valid option here as I don't fully see the military nexus. That being said, Remedial Measures are absolutely the way to go.

If there's a dubious military nexus, how does an IC stand up to a redress of grievance? If you're dead set on making an example of them, a few extras should be plenty sufficient.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2017, 15:29:47 »
At this point, nothing they did in public identified them as members of the Canadian Armed Forces. Like every other Canadian, they have freedom of expression, and from what I saw in the videos, they did not cross the line into either hate speech or libel. I am not convinced anything would stick against them.

Anyone here ever heard that the old Canadian flag (which still flies in many places, BTW) is considered the "equivalent to the Confederate flag? I've never heard that before. On the other hand, I am saddened to see that the young person holding that flag (who has never lived in the country while it was still the official flag of Canada) is ignorant of the history of its replacement. Contrary to his claim, it was not replaced by Trudeau (by which, I took him to mean Trudeau senior). It was actually replaced by Lester B. Pearson a few years before he left to be replaced by Trudeau - the whole to the great chagrin of ol' Diefenbaker (who was probably too prudish to drown his sorrow with alcohol  [:D ). Moreover, I truly don't appreciate young Canadians going around claiming that Canada is (present tense) a British colony. Personally, I swore an oath to the Queen of Canada, not the crown of England.

Offline gryphonv

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2017, 15:33:50 »
Personally, I swore an oath to the Queen of Canada, not the crown of England.

I love that distinction, unfortunately too many people can't see the difference.

Anyone here ever heard that the old Canadian flag (which still flies in many places, BTW) is considered the "equivalent to the Confederate flag?

First I've seen it was today on that facebook. I look at it as someone who is ignorant on history, and the claim itself is a pretty big stretch. But hey protesters don't need to be right about history, just right about what parts they pick and choose ... or make up.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 15:38:51 by gryphonv »

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2017, 15:38:09 »
Curious:  blue golf shirts with gold collar/sleeve trim - an RCN thing or something else?

According to some of "the usual suspect" antifa social media sites, the Navy's been asked about this - see attached.
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Offline gryphonv

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2017, 15:41:07 »
The sad thing I see coming out of this, is another 'click through' web course that everyone will have to complete by a date.


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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2017, 17:43:31 »
So from what I have seen via the same links, and a story CBC did, it's not so much that the old Dominion flag is being compared to the Confederate flag, it's that under the Dominion flag many atrocities were conducted against native populations. Thus dragging it out during a native protest and expecting nothing to happen is ridiculous. It would be like dragging out the German flag at a Jewish protest. So they knew they were stirring the pot etc etc. And as has been mentioned they were not identifying themselves as members of the military, however you must conduct yourself to a level expected of the CAF at all times. If the Admiral wouldnt condone the actions in uniform, you can easily expect that it will not be condoned in civilian attire. As for the 'Proud Boys' part, I've read up on them after seeing it in this article, and I'm not quite sure this will be good for their case either. The "Alt-Right" this organization is representing is fairly close if not crossing the line of racism and white supremacy. This is however going to be a real good read when the charges are wrote up. If I were a betting man I would go with NDA 129 for starters...Probably a few more tacked on...
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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2017, 18:03:15 »
The Red Ensign has only been Canada's flag from 1922–1965 (in two iterations - changed in 1957).  If you want to blame anything on the "Flag" for events prior to 1922, perhaps you would best refer to the Union Jack.
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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2017, 18:11:43 »
Their venue sucked, but standing around with a Red Ensign, in a park is not illegal. If the videos are true and they did nothing, CAF shouldn't even get involved.

How do you discipline someone for upholding their Charter Rights.

The Red Ensign is not equivalent to the Stars and Bars. Anyone saying otherwise is ignorant of history and/ or an idiot.

I have trouble understanding why they blame Europeans. Probably because they are available and it is de rigueur to blame everything on 'whitey'

Trying to remember my history. If I'm historically wrong, I'm sure a correction will be forthcoming. I think, before the 'white man', the Five Nations (mohawk, etc), invaded, enslaved, pillaged,  killed and occupied territory of other peaceful tribes all though Central and eastern Canada and the States. They were merciless in their actions to other tribes. The Five Nations were made up of a confederacy of tribes that practiced genocide long before Europeans showed up. When they did, they did exactly the same thing and took the land from the Five Nations, who had stolen it originally from others. All of a sudden the rules changed and we're supposed to just give everything back and then pay them besides? Why? Something like ANTIFA, they scream, yell and demand but pay no attention to history or how they abuse it, except for the cherry picked parts.

My personal feeling is that we'll never sort out the native problem until we close the reservations and integrate everyone into a single society that is fair for all and everyone has the same chance at success, with no exceptions. One final leg up, one final gratis payment, training if they wish and job hunting help. Then that's it. No more handouts, for anyone, native or immigrant. We can't allow any more second and third generation welfare families, anywhere.

That's my :2c: on the subject.
+2,200 « Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 18:15:55 by recceguy »
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2017, 18:26:31 »
When one of the guys identifies himself as being Cree and had a grandfather who fought in WW I and relatives who fought in WW II and Korea, he is shot down by the belligerent girl for not respecting their rights and history, while she is not respecting his rights and history.  Only her views mattered (Sounds familiar).  Hopefully some day she learns that "respect" is a two way street. 

From what I saw, it was not the gentlemen in the 'golf shirts' who were being belligerent, but the protesters who were blocking access to any wanting to walk through the park. 

As an aside; I have never seen a 'Black' Mi'kmaw before. :dunno:  A first for me.   
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Offline gryphonv

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2017, 18:36:09 »

My personal feeling is that we'll never sort out the native problem until we close the reservations and integrate everyone into a single society that is fair for all and everyone has the same chance at success, with no exceptions. One final leg up, one final gratis payment, training if they wish and job hunting help. Then that's it. No more handouts, for anyone, native or immigrant. We can't allow any more second and third generation welfare families, anywhere.


Most people(myself included) will see this as the only logical fix. But unfortunately it'll never happen. Well at least not peacefully.

Look at the outrage when the government tried to make them report on where they were spending money, many refused, of the ones that did many were shown to overpaying certain band members (which wasn't a surprise if you ever been to a reserve). One of my good native friends once told me, if you want to find the Chief in a reserve, "look for the nicest house". Reserves are essentially little fiefdoms with the Chief and who they deem getting the most benefit.

And to force them en mass to integrate, well that will conjure specters of the residential schools. Something which Canada is trying to move on from.

Another problem is the divisiveness within Native populations. Ones that do well living in the main society are usually ostracized from their band. In some cases bands will banish them from their reserves, treat them as traitors and such.

I'm metis myself, but you will be hard stretched to find many with roots back to the colonial days, that couldn't claim as much.

We all know what it'll take to fix this, but we'll never have a politician with the fortitude to even attempt it. Cash handouts and apologizing only exasperates things in the end.   


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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2017, 18:39:55 »
When one of the guys identifies himself as being Cree and had a grandfather who fought in WW I and relatives who fought in WW II and Korea, he is shot down by the belligerent girl for not respecting their rights and history, while she is not respecting his rights and history.  Only her views mattered (Sounds familiar).  Hopefully some day she learns that "respect" is a two way street. 


That part annoyed me, typical protester pushing peoples space trying to get a violent confrontation to have captured on video.

Of the whole video she was the only one who was really being aggressive. The guy made the right move by turning his back to her.

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2017, 18:43:53 »
We all know what it'll take to fix this, but we'll never have a politician with the fortitude to even attempt it. Cash handouts and apologizing only exasperates things in the end.

Actually, there have been a few; some of them 'Indigenous' Members of Parliament or the Senate.  There were proposals to do away with the Indian Act, but all attempts were shot down.


On that note:  How many 'Indigenous' Members of Parliament and Senators have we seen over the years?  Quite a few.  Elijah Harper played a prominent role as a Member of Parliament. 
 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 18:49:32 by George Wallace »
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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2017, 19:43:48 »
As an aside; I have never seen a 'Black' Mi'kmaw before. :dunno:  A first for me.

I  grew up in Southern Alberta, between the Peigan and Blood tribes.  These folks looked as one would expect First Nations peoples to be. It wasn't until I was posted to NS that I have come across numerous times, men and women who identify as Mi'kmaw but are as fair skinned etc as I am.   :stars:  I also know some fine gentlemen who also identify as Mi'kmaw, they do look as one would expect a First Nations member to appear with respect to skin tone, facial features etc.  :dunno:

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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2017, 19:53:58 »

i have a friend, full status from Ontario.  He's as ginger as my neighbour's cat, and if he was any paler, he'd be transparent.  SPF 3000 is his skin lotion of choice.
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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2017, 20:09:11 »
Their venue sucked, but standing around with a Red Ensign, in a park is not illegal. If the videos are true and they did nothing, CAF shouldn't even get involved.


Inclined to agree.

If they didn't identify themselves as members of the CAF and they didn't break any laws then why would th CAF be involved?
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Re: 'Confrontation' with Mi'gmaq ceremony/protest in Halifax
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2017, 20:19:19 »
Their venue sucked, but standing around with a Red Ensign, in a park is not illegal. If the videos are true and they did nothing, CAF shouldn't even get involved.

How do you discipline someone for upholding their Charter Rights.


I agree with RG on this one.  I also think it applies to trying to nail someone in the CAF for what they post on their FB page too.  We are, afterall, Canadian citizens too right??

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-15.html

Fundamental freedoms

2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

(a) freedom of conscience and religion;


(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;


(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and


(d) freedom of association.

I'd like to see someone other than the police, let's say, tell me I can't walk thru a public area in Halifax etc.  Good luck.

"Stop telling everyone I'm an *******; I like to see the look on their face when they realize it for themselves..."