Author Topic: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver  (Read 16605 times)

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Online Chris Pook

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2016, 18:38:42 »
Actually, I think that making more small provinces is the worst possible choice ... all that accomplishes is to make the federal government more intrusive by making it "needed" to effect fiscal redistribution. We would do better to have five larger provinces:

     1. Pacific Canada (BC + YU: population 4.7 million);
     2. The Prairies (AB + SK + MB + NT + NU: 6.6 million);
     3. Ontario (13.6 million);
     4. Quebec (8.2 million); and
     5. Atlantic Canada (NS + NB + NL + PE: population 2.4 million).

Or we might have, my preference, just three:

          A. Canada West (population 11.3 million);
          B. Central Canada (population 13.6 million; and
          C. Canada East, a bilingual province with a distinctively French flair, population 10.6 million).

The three province solution would, I think, improve productivity and intra-national trade and commerce thereby improving our overall prosperity and it would render the national, central government less "necessary" and, therefore, cause parts of it (powers) to migrate back where they belong (constitutionally) and it would, eventually, grow smaller and cheaper to operate and, thereby again, better focused on its core responsibilities.

ERC.

You talk efficiency.  I'm talking democracy.  Democracy isn't efficient.  Dictatorship is highly efficient.

You can only start to achieve a sense of balance when democracy occurs locally, when everybody feels connected to their neighbour and their communal fate.  Large bodies create distance that results in a loss of connection.

Chretien said he would never ask Ralph to write him a check.  Implicit in that was that Chretien owned the cash and Ralph and his followers got it on sufferance.

In point of fact Confederation is built on the notion of Canada being a collection of self financing provinces each, in turn, composed of individual communities that raised funds for their own churches, their own schools and their own doctors and hospitals.

Community started locally.

I agree with the notion that the Feds are excessively intrusive.  I don't agree that the answer is more petty dictators.
Over, Under, Around or Through.
Anticipating the triumph of Thomas Reid.

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Offline GR66

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2016, 19:08:39 »
ERC.

You talk efficiency.  I'm talking democracy.  Democracy isn't efficient.  Dictatorship is highly efficient.

You can only start to achieve a sense of balance when democracy occurs locally, when everybody feels connected to their neighbour and their communal fate.  Large bodies create distance that results in a loss of connection.

Chretien said he would never ask Ralph to write him a check.  Implicit in that was that Chretien owned the cash and Ralph and his followers got it on sufferance.

In point of fact Confederation is built on the notion of Canada being a collection of self financing provinces each, in turn, composed of individual communities that raised funds for their own churches, their own schools and their own doctors and hospitals.

Community started locally.

I agree with the notion that the Feds are excessively intrusive.  I don't agree that the answer is more petty dictators.

I agree with ERC on the benefits of having fewer, larger provinces and the Federal Government devolving some of their accrued powers back to the provinces where they were originally intended.  But at the same time I think it would be equally important for the Provinces to devolve some of their powers down to the municipal level including more ways of raising taxes.

Three levels of democracy each with their own powers (divided so that they really reflect respective National, Provincial and Local interests) with each level of government having the ability to raise the funds required to fulfill their respective obligations to their citizens.

Offline MCG

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2016, 23:08:46 »
Actually, I think that making more small provinces is the worst possible choice ... all that accomplishes is to make the federal government more intrusive ...
Is that like federal politicians pondering the idea of making certain cities bilingual?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberal-committee-chair-eyes-making-city-of-ottawa-officially-bilingual/article31908535/

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2016, 07:02:49 »
What if, and this a wild idea, we empowered our municipal governments more and made them responsible for lots of things that the Provincial and Federal levels look after.  To better reflect the ideals and needs of the immediate community it serves.

This way small localities in say Alberta could ensure their way of life is less obstructed by whims of local concern in say Quebec.

Take firearms as a issue.  While many/most people in the GTA may be repulsed buy firearm ownership that shouldn't impact someone in Churchill Manitoba's decision or ability to own firearms. 

Let the federal government handle things outside the country, provincial a broad and lessened role looking after provincial issue and  municipal getting the lions share of work and the redistribution of funds to support that.

I'm not talking about a full restructuring of government more redefined PDR Part 1s ( ;) Like that CFPAS reference ? ) for the levels of government and the fiscal support to accompany that.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2016, 10:14:19 »
I can tell you that as a Federal regulator, I have had to "remind" both municipalities and Provincial government departments of the limits of their mandate when they wrongful imposed things onto citizens. In small towns disputes I have been asked to intervene because we are seen not to have a dog in the fight, I also have people trying to drag us into their local fights to screw the other side. Personally I find Municipalities and Regional districts the most intrusive and rigid of all types of government. I also find it almost amusing when they complain that our Federal requirements are to strict and they should get a free pass, I love asking if their city hall does the same for their permits. The Feds have a lot of our own problems, but generally it's a ponderous beast that may squish you without realizing your there.   

Offline mariomike

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2016, 11:16:59 »
Read this recently on Milnet.ca , "Poor, rural and small town Canada gets paid by urban Canada, simple as that."

The GTA can always dream of the independence enjoyed by Prince Edward Island, but I doubt it will become a reality any time soon.

Metro Chairman Godfrey brought it up back in the 1970's in front of a Royal Commission.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending upon one's political point of view,

"Political observers say the change is unlikely to happen, given it would require the approval of Parliament and seven of the provinces, with at least 50 per cent of the population."
Toronto Star March 16, 2010

What Ontario premier wants to go down in history as the one who lost the GTA? Not just votes in another provincial election. I mean permanently lost it.



« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 12:28:10 by mariomike »

Online Chris Pook

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2016, 12:29:54 »
Read this recently on Milnet.ca , "Poor, rural and small town Canada gets paid by urban Canada, simple as that."

The GTA can always dream of the independence enjoyed by Prince Edward Island, but I doubt it will become a reality any time soon.

Metro Chairman Godfrey brought it up back in the 1970's in front of a Royal Commission.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending upon one's political point of view,

"Political observers say the change is unlikely to happen, given it would require the approval of Parliament and seven of the provinces, with at least 50 per cent of the population."
Toronto Star March 16, 2010

What Ontario premier wants to go down in history as the one who lost the GTA? Not just votes in another provincial election. I mean permanently lost it.

Torxit?   >:D
Over, Under, Around or Through.
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Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. [Ambrose Bierce, 1911]

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2016, 12:35:44 »
Torxit?   >:D

"If you love something, let it go..." 

Like when a chick says, "We need to talk..."  ( The four worst words in the English language. )  :)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 12:58:58 by mariomike »

Offline George Wallace

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2016, 14:34:03 »

What Ontario premier wants to go down in history as the one who lost the GTA? Not just votes in another provincial election. I mean permanently lost it.

Hell; we'd have to move the Legislature to Hamilton or Windsor.  Then where would we be?
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2016, 14:45:17 »
Hell; we'd have to move the Legislature to Hamilton or Windsor. 
Hamilton.  Sheila Copps already stole HMCS Haida and moved it to Hamilton where no one will see it. 

They may as well have the Provincial Legislature too, in the hopes that no one will hear from them.   ;D
I even read works I disagree with;  life outside  an ideological echo chamber.

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2016, 14:52:44 »
Hell; we'd have to move the Legislature to Hamilton or Windsor.  Then where would we be?

In Capital City! Yeah!

Capital City, my home sweet, yeah!
Capital City, that happy-tal city,
It's Capital City,
My home sweet swingin' home!
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Offline MCG

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2016, 14:53:05 »
Hell; we'd have to move the Legislature to Hamilton or Windsor.  Then where would we be?
Send it back to Kingston.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2016, 15:07:58 »
Send it back to Kingston.

That was the Federal seat of government.   [:D

On the Federal side though, there is a movement of Francophones who want Ottawa, as the National Capital to become "officially" Bilingual, not that it is not already more or less so; but no mention of Gatineau becoming officially Bilingual as well.  Both, after all, are the National Capital Region, that has been proposed by some to become an entity in itself.
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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2016, 23:01:18 »
... there is a movement of Francophones who want Ottawa, as the National Capital to become "officially" Bilingual, not that it is not already more or less so; but no mention of Gatineau becoming officially Bilingual as well ...
Funny that ...
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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2016, 03:52:13 »
That was the Federal seat of government.   [:D

Not Federal. National. The Province of Canada (with it's original capital at Kingston) was a full amalgamation of Lower Canada and Upper Canada -- there was only the one legislature, so there was no federal system.

This unified system was rejected within 25 years and Confederation intentionally went with a very different federal system with many powers devolved to provincial legislatures. Either system (unified and federal) can work fine, and in a country the size of Canada, I think we will always need some type of a federal system.

That's not to say that we are locked in forever to our current 10 provinces -- but if the GTA and Rest of Ontario want to partition, it won't happen without strong consensus that it's the right thing to do -- and in our constitution such consensus is hard to achieve. Honestly, I could see Maritime Union (amalgamating PEI, NB and NS) as a more compelling economic case, and that simply won't happen as it would be a threat to PEI retaining it's constitutional overrepresentation in the House, the Senate, and the First Minister's Conferences.

On a side note, it's interesting to me that the UK has, over the last 100 years, also moved away from what was once the strongest unified national legislature in the world to a semi-federal system (with legislatures for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland).

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2016, 10:45:57 »
-- but if the GTA and Rest of Ontario want to partition, it won't happen without strong consensus that it's the right thing to do -- and in our constitution such consensus is hard to achieve.

"In the 1970s, Paul Godfrey presented to the Royal Commission on Metropolitan Toronto, as chairman of Metropolitan Toronto, arguments that the region should have the capability to set policy as does a provincial government."

Michael Gravelle, the Minister of Northern Development and Mines, said "I look at it from the perspective of would this be good for Northern Ontario . . . and I don‘t think it would be.”
http://www.liquisearch.com/proposal_for_the_province_of_toronto/history

"Political observers say the change is unlikely to happen, given it would require the approval of Parliament and seven of the provinces, with at least 50 per cent of the population."
Toronto Star March 16, 2010




« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 11:13:27 by mariomike »

Offline JesseWZ

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2016, 13:14:39 »
and that simply won't happen as it would be a threat to PEI retaining it's constitutional overrepresentation in the House, the Senate, and the First Minister's Conferences.


Since PEI can enjoy the benefits of being a province, why not Vancouver Island? There is a growing Provincial Independence movement here on the Left Coast that make *some* compelling arguments. We already quadruple or quintuple the population of PEI and have a more diverse economy as well...

Our provincial animal will be the Hipster and our provincial flower - obviously marijuana.

Vive The province of Vancouver Island!
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2016, 16:25:32 »
Since PEI can enjoy the benefits of being a province, why not Vancouver Island? There is a growing Provincial Independence movement here on the Left Coast that make *some* compelling arguments. We already quadruple or quintuple the population of PEI and have a more diverse economy as well...

Our provincial animal will be the Hipster and our provincial flower - obviously marijuana.

Vive The province of Vancouver Island!

Hear Hear! 

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Reply:  "If."

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2016, 23:50:40 »
What is the bag limit for Hipsters?
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Offline mariomike

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2017, 11:24:34 »
Removed my reply to this post in the 2016 US Election thread, because I think it belongs here instead,

It seems to surprise citizens of Toronto that the rest of Canada does not think like them, and does not wish to be ruled by them.

It seems to surprise citizens of the rest of Canada that Toronto does not think like them, and does not wish to be ruled by them.

See, I can do that to.  :)

GTA secede? Where's the door?  :)

Ottawa and the province will never return what they've taken away. The reason they haven't is obvious: There's just no political gain to be made by doing right by Toronto. For a political party trying to get elected, it's far easier and cheaper to sway a few hundred voters in a rural riding than to convince several thousand in the GTA.

The GTA is the favourite whipping boy of all federal and provincial political parties.

Until the City of Toronto Act was passed in 2006, the City had to go to Queen's Park for permission for something as minor as a speed bump. We can't get decent transit because our taxes are being spent on paving roads in the Middle of Nowhere, Ontario.

"In my book Urban Nation (2008), I wrote that Canada's cities were the orphans of Confederation, creatures of the provinces locked in constitutional arrangements that are almost a century and a half out of date. Our large urban regions are now the economic, social, and cultural engines of the country. They compete with other large urban regions around the world to create prosperity and well-being.

 In Canada, these regions create the wealth that gets shared with the rest of the country through our redistribution and transfer arrangements. It is in our cities that the capital pools are assembled to take the oil, gas, and minerals out of the ground, where the factories and laboratories are built, and where much of our modern industries of information and design are based.

 But our cities are not in control of their own destiny. Like Blanche Dubois in A Streetcar Named Desire, they are very much reliant on the kindness of strangers. They have few residual powers and limited revenue tools, being overly reliant on property taxes and barred from levying income or sales taxes, the big revenue generators. They are closely controlled by provincial governments and generally ignored by Ottawa. Their role in Confederation is to send money and keep quiet.

 And they are under-represented in our federal and provincial parliaments. At the federal level, the average rural riding has 75,000 residents, the average urban riding 120,000."

That is the reason I do not follow party politics.

Read this on Milnet.ca , "Poor, rural and small town Canada gets paid by urban Canada, simple as that."

The GTA can always dream of the independence enjoyed by Prince Edward Island, but I doubt it will become a reality any time soon.

Unfortunately,

"Political observers say the change is unlikely to happen, given it would require the approval of Parliament and seven of the provinces, with at least 50 per cent of the population."
Toronto Star March 16, 2010

"In the 1970s, Paul Godfrey presented to the Royal Commission on Metropolitan Toronto, as chairman of Metropolitan Toronto, arguments that the region should have the capability to set policy as does a provincial government."

Michael Gravelle, the Minister of Northern Development and Mines, said "I look at it from the perspective of would this be good for Northern Ontario . . . and I don‘t think it would be.”
http://www.liquisearch.com/proposal_for_the_province_of_toronto/history

If they hate Toronto so much, they sure didn't mind driving in from God knows where to apply for jobs on our emergency services, after Queen's Park forced Toronto to lift it's residency requirement. The province said it discriminated against out of town applicants. 

I mean applicants with many years of out of town experience who were willing to leave small town Ontario to pursue their "dream" - as they put it - to come work for our department.

Another example was that the province only funded our department for Toronto's residential population. Not its business day and visitor population.

So, 50 per cent of our funding had to come from our municipal tax base.

One-third of Canada s population is located within a 160 km radius of Toronto.

One-half of the population of the United States is within a 1 days drive of Toronto.

Toronto is Canada s #1 tourist destination with 21 million visitors in 1999.

48% of Toronto s population are immigrants.

Toronto is Canada's gateway to the international marketplace with accessibility via highways, air, rail and urban transit.

http://www.cpha.ca/uploads/confs/2003-ctph/phct_bonnie_henry.pdf

As a result, there were always more people coming in from out of town, out of province, out of country, requiring our services than the department was funded for by the province.


« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 12:00:54 by mariomike »

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2017, 12:08:28 »
Quote
...Our large urban regions are now the economic, social, and cultural engines of the country. They compete with other large urban regions around the world to create prosperity and well-being...

So how does Toronto's mighty economic power play into Ontario's $12B transfer from the federal government, or was that the result of the ruralites from Pickle Lake to Temiskaming?

The flip side would be those rural folk not overly impressed with Toronto's repeated voting for Kathleen Wynne..."Qui gladio ferit, gladio perit." :nod:

Regards
G2G


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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2017, 12:17:00 »
So how does Toronto's mighty economic power play into Ontario's $12B transfer from the federal government, or was that the result of the ruralites from Pickle Lake to Temiskaming?

It was in quotation marks.

This is the author,
https://books.google.ca/books/about/Urban_Nation.html?id=y32kWoDoVOEC&source=kp_cover&redir_esc=y
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 12:21:29 by mariomike »

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2017, 12:37:29 »
I am mercantilist at heart, I guess.

Does the GTA bring in more money from foreigners than it costs us to maintain it?  If it does, it is worthwhile hanging on to it.   :whistle:
Over, Under, Around or Through.
Anticipating the triumph of Thomas Reid.

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Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. [Ambrose Bierce, 1911]

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2017, 13:10:00 »
Getting out is just a fantasy, Chris.

"In the 1970s, Paul Godfrey presented to the Royal Commission on Metropolitan Toronto, as chairman of Metropolitan Toronto, arguments that the region should have the capability to set policy as does a provincial government."

"Political observers say the change is unlikely to happen, given it would require the approval of Parliament and seven of the provinces, with at least 50 per cent of the population."
Toronto Star March 16, 2010



Online Chris Pook

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2017, 13:51:40 »
Getting out is just a fantasy, Chris.

"In the 1970s, Paul Godfrey presented to the Royal Commission on Metropolitan Toronto, as chairman of Metropolitan Toronto, arguments that the region should have the capability to set policy as does a provincial government."

"Political observers say the change is unlikely to happen, given it would require the approval of Parliament and seven of the provinces, with at least 50 per cent of the population."
Toronto Star March 16, 2010

I know.  I saw your first time posting that.  But it never hurts to dream a bit.  And the future is always up for grabs.  There are 7,476,724,138 (and counting) equally intelligent people that disagree with me and would rather live in their fantasy world.  Everyone of them makes decisions that impact me.  So I have given up on trying to predict what stability looks like and plan for chaos.

 :)
Over, Under, Around or Through.
Anticipating the triumph of Thomas Reid.

"One thing that being a scientist has taught me is that you can never be certain about anything. You never know the truth. You can only approach it and hope to get a bit nearer to it each time. You iterate towards the truth. You don’t know it.”  - James Lovelock

Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. [Ambrose Bierce, 1911]