Author Topic: Remembrance Day  (Read 49465 times)

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Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2013, 16:03:10 »
Remembrance day ceremonies are usually pretty huge here in St.Johns. Weather was absolute crap here today though so I think it was canceled.

Negative, it went off although it was condensed. 37 CER/56 ES/ Salute Tp still put off our annual 21 Gun salute.


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Offline sprl

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2013, 16:05:42 »
Notwithstanding the OP, I've had several of my American (civilian and ex-military) colleagues wish me a "Happy Veterans Day" today.  I appreciated the sentiment - as well as the difference between what 11-11 means north and south of the border.  While it is indeed a more solemn and sober day here, I keep remembering Peanuts comics where Snoopy puts on his wedge and goes over to Bill Mauldin's house on Veteran's Day to quaff a few root beers and talk about their days in the service... as far as that goes, I think that "Happy Veterans Day" is not at all an incorrect sentiment if it comes from the appropriate source.  :2c:

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2013, 16:54:52 »
The Americans have Memorial Day to remember their Fallen.  We have Remembrance Day to remember our Fallen.

The Americans have Veteran's Day to remember and thank their living Veterans.  We have Red Fridays.

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Offline dangerboy

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2013, 17:01:47 »
The Americans have Memorial Day to remember their Fallen.  We have Remembrance Day to remember our Fallen.

The Americans have Veteran's Day to remember and thank their living Veterans.  We have Red Fridays.

Unfortunately a lot of people in key positions don't seem to know the difference. I attended two parades and in both the speakers (legion and senior CF pers) were thanking the serving members and implied that Remembrance day is for that reason.  So it not hard to see where people can get confused.   
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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2013, 17:31:35 »
I'm left wondering where the confusion lies; here, or elsewhere:

http://www.legion.ca/honour-remember/poppy-remembrance/

Honouring the Past
As part of our Mission, The Legion strives to ensure that the deeds of those who fell are not forgotten. Whether it is through our promotion and organization of Remembrance Day events across the country (including the National Remembrance Day Ceremony in Ottawa), our annual Poppy Campaign, the creation and care of memorials like the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, the preservation of the records and memories of fallen heroes, youth education or many of the other activities we are involved in, we honour the past.

Respecting the Present
Of course, it is not only to honour the fallen that we observe Remembrance Day each and every year. As part of our observance, we also acknowledge the courage and sacrifice of both the Veterans including currently serving. In fact, through the generosity of Canadians who take part in our Poppy Campaign, we are able to serve Veterans and their families on a daily basis. With a number of advocacy efforts and member services, we ensure that they are cared for and treated with the respect they deserve.

Offline Towards_the_gap

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2013, 19:10:59 »
Anyone catch the CDS mis-identifying the unit of his wreath-laying guest at the start of CBC's coverage of the national ceremony?


' Cpl M*****, of 37 Construction Engineer Regiment....'???

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2013, 22:15:14 »
Anyone catch the CDS mis-identifying the unit of his wreath-laying guest at the start of CBC's coverage of the national ceremony?


' Cpl M*****, of 37 Construction Engineer Regiment....'???

Damn pretty bad even they don't know a unit's name.... :facepalm: and the member would be from my regiment.... 37 COMBAT ENGINEER REGIMENT....
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Offline myself.only

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2013, 23:36:58 »
We have Red Fridays.

Sadly, I don't know when's the last time I saw any signs, or heard any promotion, of the Canadian public commemorating / participating in Red Fridays.
Has anyone else observed a similar decline in participation amongst the general / civilian population?
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Offline Emilio

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2013, 01:01:57 »
I'm kind of ashamed to say this right now...But I never even heard of red Fridays until Mr.Wallace mentioned it.
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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2013, 10:19:39 »
Weather was absolute crap here today though so I think it was canceled.
Perhaps you should have gone to look; the experience may have proven beneficial.
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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2013, 10:46:30 »
Following this thread has given me pause to reconsider how I look at Remembrance Day. I understand the purpose of Remembrance Day is to honour the fallen, but it appears over time this has expanded to include honouring our living veterans. Looking at what happened across Canada yesterday, to me it was heartwarming to see how much appreciation was extended to our veterans while at the same time Canadians honoured our dead. Is this a bad thing? I know some might see this as a deviation from the original purpose of Remembrance Day, or some sort of Americanization of a Canadian tradition, but I think we should embrace this change. Heaven knows our veterans need all the public support they can get, so why not simply accept this and acknowledge that Remembrance Day now includes honouring our veterans? I would suggest that in the minds of many Canadians it already does, so why resist?  Honouring living veterans does not reduce our respect for the fallen. And with regards to Red Shirt Fridays, is that still happening? I live in a military town (well, Naval town) and its been a long, long time since I have seen this mentioned in the press, or anywhere else for that matter.

Offline Danjanou

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2013, 11:13:43 »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/remembrance-day-a-replay-of-our-webcast-1.2422158

Recognized a few familar faces in that video, thanks. Weather looked as crappy as I remember from Parades there years past.
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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2013, 11:15:03 »
Good post, OldTanker.   I was going to say more or less the same thing.  Despite what the 11th commemoration was intended/designed, I too believe it has over the years changed to what we see now.  A dual purpose perhaps Veteran's Day/Memorial Day (to borrow from the references made down with our cousins) as it were. 

The survivors of the Great War whom wanted to remember the fallen with this day have now also left our side, and the Second World War veteran's are swiftly departing now too.  In the not too distant future there will be no one left to remember their fallen comrades on a personal level.  Although they (the survivors) didn't make the ultimate sacrifice, they did sacrifice none the less for the greater good of Canada.  Is it wrong to show appreciation to them while there are here to receive it?  I think perhaps not.  It's good and right in my opinion that they should be acknowledged in a positive manner by their fellow citizens.

Anyhow that's my  :2c:

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2013, 11:23:05 »
I would suggest that in the minds of many Canadians it already does, so why resist?
I have to disagree.

In the minds of many Canadians, writing "C U @ bar" is considered a sentence. Should we resist?  Well, it does convey the purpose of passing a message, so what's the problem.  But then you get a memo from a subordinate, usually time-sensitive with an expectation that it will be forwarded quickly, that looks like it was written by a chimpanzee, because we've accepted the lowest-common denominator.

Can we not maintain one day without losing focus and dumbing it down for the masses?  Particularly this day, because once you shrug and say "OK, it's not to remember sacrifices in war, but to commemorate anyone who's worn a uniform," it quickly becomes politicized (as we've seen with the white poppy crowd), or its value diminished (in previous years, I've seen reference to including fallen emergency services' personnel).

If "the masses" misunderstand the meaning of Remembrance Day, then perhaps an education push is needed -- yes, even if that hurts the feelings of some kid from Newfoundland posting on a military-themed website.  I'm sure he'll remember the meaning of 11 November from this day forward.


Having lost several friends on military operations, Remembrance Day has become more personal to me over the past few years than it used to be.  Maybe I just "get it" now.  And while I certainly have no anger issues  ;)  when a friend of several years thanked me for my service the other day, I just wanted to yell at her, "IT'S NOT ABOUT US!!!"  It was that irritating.


So no, I don't think we should dumb it down to patting ourselves on the back for wearing or having worn a uniform.  It's not about us.
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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2013, 11:43:39 »
I'm left wondering where the confusion lies; here, or elsewhere:

http://www.legion.ca/honour-remember/poppy-remembrance/

(....)
With the confusion further reinforced by shotgun government messaging - this from the GG (highlights mine) ....
Quote
When the call to arms first sounded, thousands of Canadians took up the quarrel with a most terrible foe. The machine of war cut them down in their youth, to lay for eternity in foreign fields. Still, their spirit lives on in our acts of remembrance.

History has flowed past in the sombre waves of veterans marching in annual parades at memorials held across the country. Heads high, arms stiffened in salute, despite the weight of time and memory resting upon their shoulders. Dwindling ranks from battles of long ago are replenished with the men and women whose more recent service abroad and at home has earned them a place of privilege among their older comrades-in-arms.

This Remembrance Day, I will humbly and proudly receive their salute, on behalf of all Canadians. We are grateful for your service and thank you for your sacrifices. We will never forget.
.... and this from the PM ....
Quote
Today, Canadians across the country gather to remember and honour the generations of Canadian men and women in uniform who left the warmth of their homes and the comfort of their families to face the hardships of conflict. We pay tribute to those who have and continue to defend our country, and promote and protect the universal values of freedom, democracy and the rule of law that we continue to hold dear ....  “Today, Canadians across the country gather to remember and honour the generations of Canadian men and women in uniform who left the warmth of their homes and the comfort of their families to face the hardships of conflict. We pay tribute to those who have and continue to defend our country, and promote and protect the universal values of freedom, democracy and the rule of law that we continue to hold dear .... On this special day, let us pay our heartfelt tribute to all members of the Canadian Armed Forces – both past and present – whose selflessness, courage and sacrifices have given us the freedom we enjoy, the democracy by which we govern ourselves and the justice under which we live. ....
.... and this from the Minister of Defence ....
Quote
On November 11th Canadians honour our men and women in uniform, who have served and continue to serve with courage and dedication, at home and abroad. We also pause to remember the sailors, soldiers, , airmen and airwomen, and special operations forces that have made the ultimate sacrifice for their country, laying down their lives to protect our freedom and security.

Canadian Armed Forces members have always stood ready to defend Canada and North America, and to contribute to international peace and security. Approximately two million Canadians have served their country in the last century, participating in two World Wars, a decade of operations in Afghanistan, and numerous other conflict zones in Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

For generations, people all over the world have paused at 11 a.m. on Remembrance Day to pray and reflect on the sacrifices made by those who served their country ....
.... and this from the Minister of Military History in Canada Veterans Affairs ....
Quote
“Today, we honour brave Canadian men and women in uniform who have served our country during times of war, military conflict and peace. Throughout our nation’s history, Canadians have been asked to defend and sacrifice for the values of peace and freedom around the world. For generations, Canadians have bravely stood ready and responded as such.

“This year we mark the 60th anniversary of the armistice that ended the active fighting in the Korean War, which was one of Canada’s most significant military engagements of the 20th century. More than 26,000 Canadians served in the Korean War between 1950 and 1953.

“We also mark the 95th anniversary of the end of the First World War and the 65th anniversary of United Nations peacekeeping operations. In 2014, we will enter a period where Canadians will be marking major international anniversaries of the Great Wars.

“On these occasions and throughout the year, Canadians pause to remember the sacrifices of these brave men and women. We remember those who, in defending peace and freedom, paid the ultimate price with their lives, as well as those who have served Canada in uniform.

“Canada’s Veterans are respected around the world—respected for their dedication, for their courage and for their compassion. Today, Canadians gather together in solidarity in communities from coast to coast to coast to pay tribute to our soldiers, sailors and air personnel—wherever and whenever they served ....
.... and, finally, this from the CDS:
Quote
.... We remember our fallen and their loved ones. We remember those who were injured, physically or mentally; all of our veterans; and the families who help them carry on. We remember the enormous sacrifices and achievements made during the Great War, and the Second World War ....

Seems pretty clear to me, right? :sarcasm:

.... So no, I don't think we should dumb it down to patting ourselves on the back for wearing or having worn a uniform.  It's not about us.
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Offline myself.only

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2013, 11:58:18 »
Personally, attending the dinner, standing on parade and attending the service with my Regimental Family, the events of Remembrance Day were honouring not only the Fallen but those who also served alongside them and returned.
It did not devolve into thanking everyone who wears a uniform.
Although various people thanked all who were on parade, I think the distinction between that polite thanks and honouring remained quite clear throughout.

As a CIC officer, I will confess to never having stressed to my cadets any distinction between the Fallen and those who made it back.  I have stressed that each of the names of the Fallen on the Honour Roll from WW2 were real people not much older than the cadets in many cases, and that they risked and gave up their future, a future that they looked forward to back then just as much as the cadets do now.  But I do also stress that this is the meaning - and very real cost - of unlimited liability, accepted by those who serve in operational theatres and then I mention some members of the Regiment that have been on tour.

Have I failed to drive home the proper meaning of Remembrance Day?
I guess I have. But somehow when it comes down to the day, I cannot draw the line and place the veteran on the outside because his loader who couldn't reach the trapped driver, got to him. I'm sure that surviving veteran makes that distinction every day, but I cannot draw that line on that day.

Just my  :2c:
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Offline Towards_the_gap

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2013, 13:00:15 »
I have to disagree.

In the minds of many Canadians, writing "C U @ bar" is considered a sentence. Should we resist?  Well, it does convey the purpose of passing a message, so what's the problem.  But then you get a memo from a subordinate, usually time-sensitive with an expectation that it will be forwarded quickly, that looks like it was written by a chimpanzee, because we've accepted the lowest-common denominator.

Can we not maintain one day without losing focus and dumbing it down for the masses?  Particularly this day, because once you shrug and say "OK, it's not to remember sacrifices in war, but to commemorate anyone who's worn a uniform," it quickly becomes politicized (as we've seen with the white poppy crowd), or its value diminished (in previous years, I've seen reference to including fallen emergency services' personnel).If "the masses" misunderstand the meaning of Remembrance Day, then perhaps an education push is needed -- yes, even if that hurts the feelings of some kid from Newfoundland posting on a military-themed website.  I'm sure he'll remember the meaning of 11 November from this day forward.


Having lost several friends on military operations, Remembrance Day has become more personal to me over the past few years than it used to be.  Maybe I just "get it" now.  And while I certainly have no anger issues  ;)  when a friend of several years thanked me for my service the other day, I just wanted to yell at her, "IT'S NOT ABOUT US!!!"  It was that irritating.


So no, I don't think we should dumb it down to patting ourselves on the back for wearing or having worn a uniform.  It's not about us.


Well said sir, well said. Reference the bit in red - I was particularly incensed to watch, as the personal wreaths were laid at the end of the local ceremony in our town, a wreath laid for a Mr. XXXX and his grandson Xxxxxx.......... I responded to the fatal MVC that killed this grandson (mid 20's, not a day in the military) because he wasn't wearing a seatbelt. Yet lo and behold here was his family laying a wreath in his honour. And I don't blame them, I blame whatever legion knucklehead allowed them to do so.

Offline Lightguns

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2013, 13:31:39 »

Well said sir, well said. Reference the bit in red - I was particularly incensed to watch, as the personal wreaths were laid at the end of the local ceremony in our town, a wreath laid for a Mr. XXXX and his grandson Xxxxxx.......... I responded to the fatal MVC that killed this grandson (mid 20's, not a day in the military) because he wasn't wearing a seatbelt. Yet lo and behold here was his family laying a wreath in his honour. And I don't blame them, I blame whatever legion knucklehead allowed them to do so.

Ack that, the service I attended laid wreaths to honour 4 "fallen comrades"; specifically Legionaries who did not serve a day but were popular bar flies at said legion and died of natural or home front accidental causes (at least according to the girlfriend who is from that little village).  I fear we will see a day when the vets will be honoured in the minority and the families of legion bar flies will being honouring their loved in the majority.
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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2013, 16:04:57 »
Ah yes the let's spend 6 extra hours laying 30 or more extra wreathes crap for everyone and their dog compliments of the brain dead blue haired and blazer set at the RCL. Who cares if the elderly (Vets ) and youngsters ( cadets etc) are standing in the cold I mean it's all about "me" carrying a wreath up and of course giving a speach/sermon as well. ::)

The 2 years I spent as a Parade Commander for the East York Service the Protocol Officer and I tried to cut down on some of the superfluous wreathes. I think we managed to get rid of two, leaving twice as many as are laid in Ottawa, and that little exercise did not go over quietly.

Edit:

I just googled this years's list apparently they managed to get it down to under 40 and I'm still trying to figure out what some of them are for?
1  Victoria Cross        
2   Mothers of the Silver Cross  *** Should this be Memorial Cross???      
3  Government of Canada      
4  Province of Ontario         
5 Mayor & Toronto City Council         
6  4th Canadian Division (formerly Canadian Land Force, Central Area)      
7 Veterans Affairs Canada         
8 Royal Canadian Navy         
9  Merchant Navy         
10 Burma Star         
11 Korea Veterans                  
12 Hong Kong Veterans         
13  East York Hydro Veterans         
14 Canadian Association of Veterans in the United Nations Peacekeeping     
15  Queens York Rangers – 1st Americans   
16 Home Front Heroines         
17 Airborne 2nd Forward Observation Unit Royal Artillery
18 District D Council         
19 Zone D3 Council, Royal Canadian Legion   
20 RCL Branch 10 & Ladies Auxiliary      
21 RCL Branch 11 & Ladies Auxiliary       
22 RCL Branch 22 & Ladies Auxiliary      
23 RCL Branch 345          
24 337 Royal Canadian Army Cadets      
25 330 Air Cadets           
26 631 Sentinel         
27  Toronto Fire Services                
28 Toronto Professional Fire Fighters Association         
29 Association of Retired East York Fire Fighters
30 Toronto Police Service               
31 Toronto EMS         
32 Toronto District School Board         
33 Toronto Catholic District School Board     
34 Toronto Transit Commission         
35 Toronto Hydro         
36 St. John Ambulance

( I'm sure there were more after this)
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2013, 17:57:34 »
Well, why don't you guys with the long line of "Wreath Layers" do what is done at Beechwood Cemetery.  There they have about twelve "official" wreaths laid up during the ceremony, and announce that anyone else wanting to lay a wreath may do so after the ceremony finishes.  Than is incentive for many less "Wreath Layers", leaving only the most dedicated to bring in a wreath or two.  After all, if it isn't being laid while everyone stands and shivers, what is the point, so their numbers dwindle.  At Beechwood, there may have been a couple of private wreaths laid afterward, and then the RCD Sqn lined up and placed their poppies upon the monument or wreaths as they paid their respects.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2013, 17:58:36 »
There is plenty of room after the main service to pay ones respects.
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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2013, 21:25:43 »
After many years of participating in military Remembrance day ceremonies I have been attending my local community service.
I have been informed by my wife that she is tired of hearing me complain about the shortcomings of the  ceremony organized and conducted by our local Legion.
This year was no exception. Master of ceremony totally mixed up on the order of events, the "three" bands confused on when to play what piece of music and also a large pain watching an endless run of everybody and his dog walking up and laying a wreath. Oh and let's not forget civilians attempting a salute after laying a wreath, lost souls.
The sight of the parade sergeant major sans any military medals but lots of Legion ones on his right breast as he casually watched the parade depart from any order convinced  me that this is the normal for a civilian run parade and I  should learn to accept it.  :( 
Way to long a ceremony, the public losing interest and wandering off before the end and to me the most irritating the disorganization of a ceremony that should follow a tight traditional format.

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2013, 21:41:20 »
After many years of participating in military Remembrance day ceremonies I have been attending my local community service.
I have been informed by my wife that she is tired of hearing me complain about the shortcomings of the  ceremony organized and conducted by our local Legion.
This year was no exception. Master of ceremony totally mixed up on the order of events, the "three" bands confused on when to play what piece of music and also a large pain watching an endless run of everybody and his dog walking up and laying a wreath. Oh and let's not forget civilians attempting a salute after laying a wreath, lost souls.
The sight of the parade sergeant major sans any military medals but lots of Legion ones on his right breast as he casually watched the parade depart from any order convinced  me that this is the normal for a civilian run parade and I  should learn to accept it.  :( 
Way to long a ceremony, the public losing interest and wandering off before the end and to me the most irritating the disorganization of a ceremony that should follow a tight traditional format.

I decided to attend my home town services with a friend of mine from 3VP who.is also from the same town. Our Parade Sgt-Maj was an Air Cadet MWO (disastrous), the Padre gave "the good word" to the vets lf WW1/2 but then went on to contradict herself and basically slander the vets of present day (Bosnia, Afghanistan). and once in the legion all the tables filled up, no room for any of us current troops or the 5 RCMP officers to sit. Nobody offered us a seat, nothing. One of us even went and addressed this matter to the Branch President... Nothing.

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2013, 21:49:26 »
The ceremony at Petawawa Legion had a zillion wreaths laid.  By the time it got down to the Ladies Auxiliary of the Hell's Angels, I'd had enough and headed inside for a beverage.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline recceguy

    A Usual Suspect.

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Re: Happy veterans day
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2013, 21:49:55 »
I decided to attend my home town services with a friend of mine from 3VP who.is also from the same town. Our Parade Sgt-Maj was an Air Cadet MWO (disastrous), the Padre gave "the good word" to the vets lf WW1/2 but then went on to contradict herself and basically slander the vets of present day (Bosnia, Afghanistan). and once in the legion all the tables filled up, no room for any of us current troops or the 5 RCMP officers to sit. Nobody offered us a seat, nothing. One of us even went and addressed this matter to the Branch President... Nothing.

I still remember a bunch of us, as new Bosnia vets, being turned away at a local Legion, on Remembrance Day, because they were about to hold a dinner.

At which no veterans were present. :facepalm:
“I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind.”

John G. Diefenbaker