Author Topic: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership  (Read 328604 times)

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Offline bridges

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2012, 13:01:08 »
I'm not so sure about that.  Immigration reforms, as an example are being lauded by most as being a step in the right direction.  EI reforms, while not popular in some circles is another example of social policies where I think they hit the mark.

A matter of opinion, of course.  Those examples have both social and financial implications - particularly the EI - and they have both positive and negative potential ramifications for our society, depending on whom you talk to.  I should have been more specific; I was thinking of things like the recently-defeated "let's study when life begins" motion.  I very much doubt we'd see that coming from the Liberals, much less the NDP or Green.

And as for Mr. Trudeau's vision for the country... too much more of this will help nobody (except the CPC):

 :crickets:
"Only a person of liberal mind is entitled to exercise coercion over others in a society of free men."   -General Sir John Winthrop Hackett, GCB, CBE, DSO & Bar, MC

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2012, 13:10:33 »
I for one fully embrace the idea of Justin as leader of a political party and Prime Minister in 2015.

Imagine the cheering throngs at rallies!  Imagine the motivated young people getting involved in the political process!  Imagine the increased tourism in his hometown of Stratford, Ontario!


Yes, it's time.  Justin Bieber of leader of the Liberal Party of Canada!  You know that he wouldn't be getting the job by riding on his fathers coat-tails.
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Offline bridges

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2012, 13:11:57 »
Yes, it's time.  Justin Bieber of leader of the Liberal Party of Canada!  You know that he wouldn't be getting the job by riding on his fathers coat-tails.

OK, but no more chugging milk before political rallies.    :P   
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 09:22:46 by bridges »
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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2012, 17:02:06 »
I should have been more specific; I was thinking of things like the recently-defeated "let's study when life begins" motion.  I very much doubt we'd see that coming from the Liberals, much less the NDP or Green.

I think you've misunderstood why that particular motion was allowed to come forward:

a. the PM needed to show that the party was generally not in favour of the motion;
b. the PM needed to allow the back bench social conservatives some ability to show their constituents that they still mattered, and
c. it is not in the nature of the torries to stifle free speech because they dislike the content of the speech.

Of the three enumerated points, I think point "a" was the most important. This is the theatre of politics where what one is seen to do is often as valuable as what one actually does.
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Offline bridges

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2012, 17:24:45 »
I think you've misunderstood why that particular motion was allowed to come forward:

a. the PM needed to show that the party was generally not in favour of the motion;
b. the PM needed to allow the back bench social conservatives some ability to show their constituents that they still mattered, and
c. it is not in the nature of the torries to stifle free speech because they dislike the content of the speech.

Of the three enumerated points, I think point "a" was the most important. This is the theatre of politics where what one is seen to do is often as valuable as what one actually does.

Your point "a" proves my point as well - that this wouldn't even be necessary in any other major party, because it would never have come up in the first place.  I doubt the action of defeating such motions wholly undoes the negative effects of their being raised at all, in spite of the PM's best efforts.

Ultimately all of this is a sidebar discussion, but I think the new Liberal leader & the party as a whole will only benefit from any more socially conservative motions from the CPC back-bench, even if they are just an exercise.

"Only a person of liberal mind is entitled to exercise coercion over others in a society of free men."   -General Sir John Winthrop Hackett, GCB, CBE, DSO & Bar, MC

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2012, 17:48:58 »
A significant slice of the CPC back bench, and some of the front bench too, have strong social conservative credentials. The Liberals used to have many of a similar bent, see e.g. Tom Wappel, but Jean Chretien and Paul Martin pretty much drove them out, despite the wishes of their constituents.

I repeat there are two separate and distinct social conservative communities in Canada:

1. One is largely rural and almost entirely Christian; and

2. The second is centered on the new Canadian communities. While one or two issues overlap, a distaste for public recognition/celebration of gay pride for example, they have strongly different views on others, like abortion.

The first group, despite parties like Christian Heritage, really has nowhere to go but they bring their firmly held beliefs to the Conservatives. The second group is much sought after by all three parties ~ the Conservatives seem to have them , for now, especially in suburban Ontario and in the suburbs around Vancouver.

I, personally, am a social liberal and I rather dislike the Christian right but most social conservative are, in all other respects, pretty normal Canadians and if they can put up with my social views then I can accept theirs. That is something which is not possible in the NDP or in the modern Liberal Party of Canada, and both parties are intellectually worse off for excluding ideas they don't like.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2012, 19:59:59 »
This non news is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Toronto Star:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1264831--justin-trudeau-to-kick-off-liberal-leadership-campaign-in-quebec-b-c-and-ontario
Quote
Justin Trudeau to kick off Liberal leadership campaign in Quebec, B.C. and Ontario

Susan Delacourt
Ottawa Bureau

OTTAWA—Justin Trudeau is launching his bid to be Liberal leader with a call for the party to reclaim its role as the voice of Canada’s middle class.

At a Quebec community centre in his home riding of Papineau on Tuesday evening, Trudeau will confirm the worst-kept secret of Canadian politics and announce he is running to lead the Liberal party.

He will also be kicking off his campaign this week in Mississauga and Richmond, B.C., in rallies that are expected to attract large crowds.

“We’re just hoping that people who are curious or who want to see what he’s all about will come out to see him, and gauge whether they want to support him,” said former Liberal MP Navdeep Bains, who is co-hosting the Mississauga event on Thursday evening, along with fellow former MP Omar Alghabra.

Trudeau, son of a prime minister who led the Liberals from 1968 to 1984, reportedly decided in August to take the plunge into the leadership race and has amassed an organization ready to move into high gear this week. Observers and potential rivals will be watching closely to see just how large and formidable that organization is — and whether anyone will stand a chance next to the candidate dubbed the one with star power.

Last week, a mere hint of Trudeau’s intention to announce his candidacy started his name trending internationally on social media.

In the speech Trudeau is set to deliver in all three rallies this week, the 40-year-old MP is expected to set himself a challenge that on the surface seems contradictory — to get people fired up about the moderate middle of Canadian politics, the Liberals’ traditional spot on the political spectrum.

Trudeau also reportedly wants to attract people who are turned off politics altogether — especially those who have tuned out the Liberals in the past decade, as the party fell to third place in the Commons for the first time in its history.

Very deliberately, Trudeau is visiting two areas of big population growth in Canada for his first two stops after Montreal — regions set to get more seats in the House of Commons when the 2015 election is held.

Mississauga is due to get one more seat under the redrawn electoral map for 2015, while Richmond is being broken into two new ridings in British Columbia.

Members of Trudeau’s team say they believe the next election will be fought in these burgeoning population centres and the goal of any new Liberal leader will be to prove that he or she is competitive there.

These are also places where newcomers to Canada have settled, another constituency the Liberals feel they have lost to aggressive courting efforts by the Conservatives the past few years.

Though the contest doesn’t officially get under way until the middle of November, several contenders have already indicated their intention to run, including Deborah Coyne, Shane Geschiere and Jonathan Mousley.

Two other Montreal MPs are also considering their chances — Marc Garneau, who was Canada’s first man in space, and Denis Coderre, a former cabinet minister in previous Liberal governments. British Columbia MP Joyce Murray has also become more seriously interested in being a candidate in recent weeks, and question marks still hang over MPs such as Dominic LeBlanc and David McGuinty, on whether they will run.

Former MP and leadership candidate Martha Hall-Findlay has also said she will run if she can clear her debts from the last race and raise enough for a new campaign. Other possible contenders include former Liberal candidates David Bertschi and Taleeb Noormohamed, as well as Toronto lawyer George Takach.


 :o  The middle class?  ::)
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2012, 20:49:31 »
Susan must be just slobbering at this news. For the last few years she had invent things to write. Now she can sing the joyous news of "Trudeau"!! And there will be many others in the media party joining her.
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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2012, 21:57:36 »
I have the distinct impression this will turn into another coronation. Will they never learn?
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Offline GAP

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2012, 22:06:34 »
Susan must be just slobbering at this news. For the last few years she had invent things to write. Now she can sing the joyous news of "Trudeau"!! And there will be many others in the media party joining her.

On power play tonight she was almost having an organism espousing the attributes of dear Justin.....
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Offline bridges

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2012, 22:20:05 »
I, personally, am a social liberal and I rather dislike the Christian right but most social conservative are, in all other respects, pretty normal Canadians and if they can put up with my social views then I can accept theirs. That is something which is not possible in the NDP or in the modern Liberal Party of Canada, and both parties are intellectually worse off for excluding ideas they don't like.

I think you have a good point - I don't know about the Liberals, but the NDP can be very narrow-minded about this kind of thing.  As a leftie, it annoys me to no end. 
"Only a person of liberal mind is entitled to exercise coercion over others in a society of free men."   -General Sir John Winthrop Hackett, GCB, CBE, DSO & Bar, MC

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2012, 23:25:15 »
On power play tonight she was almost having an organism espousing the attributes of dear Justin.....

 :rofl:

I think you mean orgasm. :)
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2012, 00:07:06 »
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline eurowing

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2012, 00:27:24 »
Played with RC Airplanes in sandboxes

Offline GAP

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2012, 06:41:21 »
:rofl:

I think you mean orgasm. :)

Have you looked at her lately......?
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Offline bridges

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2012, 09:14:49 »
Have you looked at her lately......?

Now, now...    ::)

Anyway, the fawning likely isn't doing Trudeau any favours.  The criticism will serve him better in the long run, IMO. 
"Only a person of liberal mind is entitled to exercise coercion over others in a society of free men."   -General Sir John Winthrop Hackett, GCB, CBE, DSO & Bar, MC

Offline bridges

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2012, 09:29:37 »
BTW, having reread Susan's article above, it seems to me a relatively neutral retelling of events - not particularly excitedm compared to others. 
"Only a person of liberal mind is entitled to exercise coercion over others in a society of free men."   -General Sir John Winthrop Hackett, GCB, CBE, DSO & Bar, MC

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2012, 10:32:15 »
Gable's view, courtesy of the Globe and Mail:


Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/applause/article4576026/

It may be a little extreme to suggest that the good ship Liberal Party of Canada has sunk, rather than is just sinking; but the next leader is joining a team of recent 'leaders' (Martin, Dion, Ignatieff) who have been tossed over the side while wearing lead weighted boots.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline bridges

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2012, 10:45:07 »
That reminds me of this one...


(Edit:  how do you make the pictures big, when you attach them?)


Source:  http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/06/euro-crisis-0
"Only a person of liberal mind is entitled to exercise coercion over others in a society of free men."   -General Sir John Winthrop Hackett, GCB, CBE, DSO & Bar, MC

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2012, 10:53:18 »
That reminds me of this one...


(Edit:  how do you make the pictures big, when you attach them?)


Source:  http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/06/euro-crisis-0


First: right click on the source image and select "Copy image URL"

Second: here, in your 'Reply' box, enter [ img ] http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/full-width/images/2012/06/blogs/free-exchange/20120609_ldp001.jpg [ /img ] with the [ img] and [/img ] all closed up and, voila



It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline bridges

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2012, 11:08:32 »
Just tested - in my case there was no "Copy image URL", but I was able to get it via right-click, Properties, & then copying & pasting the URL that appears there.

Thanks - much appreciated.   :salute:

I do hope that whomever they choose, they get behind him or her 100% and there's no tossing anybody over the side afterwards. 
"Only a person of liberal mind is entitled to exercise coercion over others in a society of free men."   -General Sir John Winthrop Hackett, GCB, CBE, DSO & Bar, MC

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2012, 15:20:27 »

I do hope that whomever they choose, they get behind him or her 100% and there's no tossing anybody over the side afterwards.

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2012, 15:28:50 »
More on the NP abut the Young Dauphin's leadership aspirations. He at least seems to understand the need to bring "New Canada" into the fold, but this could also be a case of saying what his handlers want him to say. There seems to be little to no recognition that the "real" enemy is the NDP, and of course there is the huge empty space where you are supposed to insert policy...

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/10/02/kelly-mcparland-justin-mimics-ignatieff-with-early-foray-to-alberta/

Quote
Kelly McParland: Justin mimics Ignatieff with early foray to Alberta

Kelly McParland | Oct 2, 2012 12:30 PM ET
More from Kelly McParland | @KellyMcParland

REUTERS/Christinne Muschi Liberal MP Justin Trudeau watches as former Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff takes questions from business students in Montreal in January, 2009
 
Perhaps it’s appropriate that Justin Trudeau is heading directly to Calgary after formalizing his Liberal leadership candidacy today, given the extent of the damage his father’s policies in Alberta have done to the party.

It’s a recognition — long, long past due– that Pierre’s Trudeau’s legacy isn’t what Liberal diehards would have you believe. Despite all the revisionist history going on, the Trudeau years are anything but a solid asset in his son’s hopes of running the country. Liberals today prefer to recall the fight for Quebec, and Pierre Trudeau’s success in battling the separatists. They’re much less enthusiastic about dwelling on the extent of the damage caused by his dismissive, ill-considered treatment of Western Canada.

It’s not unfair to ask which of the two policies has had the greatest impact. Trudeau unquestionably played the biggest role in defeating the first separatist referendum in Quebec and kept the Liberal brand strong in that province for another decade or more. But later Liberals fumbled away much of it via the sponsorship scandal and lousy leadership, and today hold just seven of its 75 seats. The legacy of Trudeau’s disdain for the West runs much deeper; the Liberals have just four of the 92 seats west of Ontario. They’d struggle to fill a bus shelter with party members in much of that area.

The West is growing and thriving; Ontario and Quebec are struggling. Pizzazz alone might win the Justin-led Liberals a few more seats in the East; in the West they’re tilling barren soil. The difficulty for Justin is that the party lacks even the barest essentials of a viable organization in the western half of the country. It’s not like there’s a large crowd of dormant Liberals just waiting to be roused. To all intents and purposes the party is dead and gone in many constituencies, and will have to be built from the ground up.

Is Justin that kind of leader? It’s possible: at this stage in the Liberal rebuilding project, just attracting some attention to itself would be an accomplishment. If Justin, with his flashy smile and luxuriant locks, is good at anything, it’s attracting attention. Beyond that it gets a lot harder, especially in Alberta and Saskatchewan, where people quite like their strong economies and pleasant living standards, which come from the same resource industry Justin’s father tried his best to turn into a giant ATM machine, dispensing unlimited cash to finance eastern programs. His successors have done little to alter that perception: Jean Chretien barely bothered to campaign there, and Stephane Dion sought to finance his “Green Shift” via a river of tax on energy. Justin will have to do a lot more than smile boyishly to overcome those memories and the suspicions they fed.

Michael Ignatieff also made an early trip to Alberta, where he said soothing things about the oil sands and his party’s appreciation of it.

“The stupidest thing you can do (is) to run against an industry that is providing employment for hundreds of thousands of Canadians, and not just in Alberta, but right across the country,” he told a Montrteal audience in 2009 (with Justin in attendance). “All questions of energy policy are a question of national unity,” he added.

But it didn’t take. A couple of years later he was comparing Stephen Harper to the devil and insulting anyone who voted for him (as in almost all of Alberta).Like other Liberals he had difficulty convincing westerners they matter as much to the party as the environmentalists to whom they are devoted. Party culture wants so badly to be seen as pure and wholesome that it invariably slips up when trying to square that with the unfortunate realities of a resource-based economy. In the old days, Chretien could just agree to the Kyoto accord and then ignore it, bragging about his determination to fight climate change while making no effort to implement the actions he’d agreed to. But people noticed, and see through such things. It’s part of the Liberal legacy, and a big part of the trust problem it is saddled with.

After the first flush of publicity, Justin will face the far more difficult challenge of convincing Canadians he’s not just the latest new face on the same old party, and that his interest in that part of the country beyond Ontario extends past the contents of its wallet.

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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2012, 16:25:16 »
The Liberals will not, as they should not, admit, publicly, that the real enemy, for Phase 1, is the NDP: they must rally the troops with an appeal to power. But, in their war rooms and, even more important, over meals in Scaramouche, in Toronto, Hy's, in Ottawa and The Beaver Club in Montreal, the Liberals are, I suspect, tightly focused on the Dippers.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Leadership
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2012, 16:27:33 »
Can Liberals still afford to eat in those places?