Author Topic: Leave - Recall and Other Issues [MERGED]  (Read 38426 times)

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Offline Lumber

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2015, 11:44:17 »
If you have traveled outside of your "Unit Boundaries", then you would need a Leave Pass.  I would say that your being in a "Western Province" and flying to "Toronto" (well outside of your "Units Boundaries") on a weekend, without a Leave Pass, would not be within published CAF policies.

I was also under this impression for the past 9 years. Even at RMC we were told that if we were driving home for the weekend, we were to have a leave pass in case something happened to us while we were out of area. We were told (and I've been told many times since), that if I'm injured while travelling out of area without a leave pass, I may not be covered. But having read CF Leave Policy Manual section 2.1.04 - "Weekends and Holidays", I'm wondering were this widespread misconception came from. Is there another reference somewhere? There is nothing in the MARLANTORDs..
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2015, 11:46:39 »
A lot of that changed when the Leave Policy Manual came out.  But I remember those days of unit boundaries.  I think we had to submit for anything outside 60km or thereabouts (Gagetown/Armd School direction back years ago).  Heck, I remember the days of having sign-out books in the shacks and having to sign out to go to the CANEX or into Freddy or something.  It is a 'legacy' thing IMO from the time before the Leave Manual and often still used despite the Leave Manual. 

My current unit, our Sqn Orders say we are 'encouraged' to let our Crew Commanders know where we will be on normal weekend leave/days off, however we are not required to.  In the event I am on "standby", we have specific rules/report times for that and (1) I know about it before hand (2) I am not able to submit leave during that time and (3) I have distance limitations I am subject to for travel while on standby.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 11:53:10 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2015, 11:50:34 »
A lot of that changed when the Leave Policy Manual came out.  But I remember those days of unit boundaries.  I think we had to submit for anything about 60km or thereabouts (Gagetown/Armd School direction back years ago).

Every Base/Bde/Unit had their own "radius" set up to ensure a reasonable response to a "Recall".  Petawawa's for example extended to Ottawa, but not quite to Kingston/Trenton.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2015, 11:51:46 »
A lot of that changed when the Leave Policy Manual came out.  But I remember those days of unit boundaries.  I think we had to submit for anything about 60km or thereabouts (Gagetown/Armd School direction back years ago).

There is a MARLANTORD complete with maps that outlines the geographic areas that your are allowed to live in surrounding Halifax, Trenton, and St. John's, NFLD. You need permission to live outside of this area, but it doesn't say anything about leaving this area on weekends/evenings.

Also this just be tradition and not legal, but in the navy, everytime you leave work you are considered to be going "on leave". Work doesn't "start" at 0750, "leave expires" at 0750.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2015, 11:52:43 »
I was also under this impression for the past 9 years. Even at RMC we were told that if we were driving home for the weekend, we were to have a leave pass in case something happened to us while we were out of area. We were told (and I've been told many times since), that if I'm injured while travelling out of area without a leave pass, I may not be covered. But having read CF Leave Policy Manual section 2.1.04 - "Weekends and Holidays", I'm wondering were this widespread misconception came from. Is there another reference somewhere? There is nothing in the MARLANTORDs..

There are many things done a certain way because they've always been done that way, and not becuase there's any order or direction to do them that way.

I look forward to dinosaur heads exploding when leave becomes an electronic transaction with no paper, just an automated email to a supervisor saying "Bloggins has requested leave.  Click here to approve, here to reject."
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2015, 11:53:41 »
There is a MARLANTORD complete with maps that outlines the geographic areas that your are allowed to live in surrounding Halifax, Trenton, and St. John's, NFLD. You need permission to live outside of this area, but it doesn't say anything about leaving this area on weekends/evenings.

That's tied to benefits - if you're on the wrong side of the line, there's no entitlement to PLD, for example.  All those area maps are available from DGCB, as well.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2015, 12:08:22 »
A lot of that changed when the Leave Policy Manual came out.  But I remember those days of unit boundaries.  I think we had to submit for anything outside 60km or thereabouts (Gagetown/Armd School direction back years ago).  Heck, I remember the days of having sign-out books in the shacks and having to sign out to go to the CANEX or into Freddy or something.  It is a 'legacy' thing IMO from the time before the Leave Manual and often still used despite the Leave Manual. 

My current unit, our Sqn Orders say we are 'encouraged' to let our Crew Commanders know where we will be on normal weekend leave/days off, however we are not required to.  In the event I am on "standby", we have specific rules/report times for that and (1) I know about it before hand (2) I am not able to submit leave during that time and (3) I have distance limitations I am subject to for travel while on standby.

Actually, I would say it is a "Pers Management System" that supervisors have used for years to ensure they know where all their people are at all times, not just when they are on "standby".  Just because someone has not put it into 'black and white' in a 'printed form' does not make it an invalid procedure to keep track of your pers.  If the "Leave Manual" does not state that this is to be done, does not make it wrong.  It is after all just a 'Guide' to ensure that Leave Records and their associated fiscal policies are followed.  When it comes to a Unit's Alert Recall Policies, the Leave Manual is not as relevant as the Barrackroom Lawyers may believe.  A CAF member does not have the luxury of saying they will not respond to a Recall to Duty, especially in an Emergency.
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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2015, 12:15:18 »
And to further complicate things, the geographical boundaries of some bases/garrisons (the boundaries within which members are directed to live) prevent any kind of quick return to duty for some people at some times of day.

Kingston allows personnel to live on Wolfe Island -- but the ferry isn't 24/7. If you live on Wolfe Island (which is within the geographical boundaries of the base), then you aren't coming in at 300 AM. Period. Unless you own a boat, or a hovercraft in the winter.

Offline Bzzliteyr

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2015, 12:22:54 »
There are many things done a certain way because they've always been done that way, and not becuase there's any order or direction to do them that way.

I look forward to dinosaur heads exploding when leave becomes an electronic transaction with no paper, just an automated email to a supervisor saying "Bloggins has requested leave.  Click here to approve, here to reject."

I find it quite amusing that some people in my office still have a CF 100 pdf that they fill out when all you need to do is go in to Monitor Mass, select the dates you plan on making a leave pass for, then create the leave pass. You can fill in/modify all the details necessay (type of days, etc) and even add notes and comments for that "remarks/authority" section (I usually put in my licence plate if I will be driving somewhere)! 

It is then entered electronically and can be accessed by those that use Monitor Mass in the unit. I still have to print it out so it can get signed by both recommended and approval pers then sent to the OR for processing but I imagine in the future, an email will do.

Now, to find someone that knows all about the forms you can fill out automatically with Monitor Mass (PEN form anyone?)....
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2015, 12:37:26 »
Of course people have to respond to a recall if they actually receive it.  But I am not 'required' to provide my whereabouts to my CofC on weekends I am not on duty. 

Going 'on leave'; by putting in a leave pass, a mbr is also indicating the phone number and address they should be able to be contacted at while on leave for the event they are recalled.  However the following applies:

From the QR & Os:

16.01 - WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE

(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:
a.because of imperative military requirements; and
b.when the member's commanding officer personally directs the member's return to duty.

From the Leave Policy Manual

1.1.11 Imperative military requirements

Imperative military requirements mean a situation or circumstance that precludes a CF member from taking leave or permits a CO to recall a member from leave.

IMR include, but are not limited to:
•participating in an operational deployment or major military exercise;
•participating in an unforecasted tasking;
•attending a career course;
•attending a court martial; or
•posting or attached posting (including any action related to it, such as HHT, out-clearances, travelling time, Special Leave (Relocation))

IMR do not include:
•recalling a member from sick leave to take annual leave;
•recalling a member from LWOP to take annual leave;
•recalling a member from leave for an annual medical/dental exam; or
•recalling a member for performing routine personal administrative issues such as, but not limited to, PER interviews, testing or parades.


However, if I am not required to submit a leave pass to go to Toronto for the weekend (which I am not)  and am staying at the Hotel of Happiness while there (and no requirement to tell my CofC I am at the HoH) and "don't have my cell phone ringer turned on" (why would I, I am not on duty or standby until Monday morning at 0730 IAW established normal duty hours published by the CO), then what exactly is the expectation of the mbr? 

It is 'to return to work NLT 0730 Monday morning' or to call in as soon as they become aware of a recall. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 12:43:41 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2015, 12:40:35 »
I find it quite amusing that some people in my office still have a CF 100 pdf that they fill out when all you need to do is go in to Monitor Mass, select the dates you plan on making a leave pass for, then create the leave pass. You can fill in/modify all the details necessay (type of days, etc) and even add notes and comments for that "remarks/authority" section (I usually put in my licence plate if I will be driving somewhere)!

My unit MM leave passes are required.  No "legacy" CF-100s are accepted.  AFAIK, this is because MM will track changes in the parade state? 

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Offline Bzzliteyr

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2015, 12:43:26 »
My unit MM leave passes are required.  No "legacy" CF-100s are accepted.  AFAIK, this is because MM will track changes in the parade state? 



I believe yes, it puts it in the parade state. Again, how many units use MM to the max of its potential?
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2015, 12:46:05 »
I believe yes, it puts it in the parade state. Again, how many units use MM to the max of its potential?

I have no idea, but we should start.  As DAP mentioned, I recall being made aware that leave passes on paper will become a thing of the past and that might create some problems while saving paper printed;  we have a leave pass process that involves more than just 'recommended/approved' signatures.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2015, 12:55:52 »
I have no idea, but we should start.  As DAP mentioned, I recall being made aware that leave passes on paper will become a thing of the past and that might create some problems while saving paper printed;  we have a leave pass process that involves more than just 'recommended/approved' signatures.

But how much of that process is value added?  If Bloggins submits an electronic request that gets reviewed and approved, and that information gets pushed out electronically to status reports, we've eliminated clerk work, saved time and saved paper.

Right now we are wedded to paper because it's viewed as the only "real" or official document.  If we did better Information Management (supported by enabling Information Technology) we could simplify processes and eliminate lots of paper, and lots of low to no value added work.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2015, 13:30:23 »
I believe yes, it puts it in the parade state. Again, how many units use MM to the max of its potential?

My last unit, we used it a lot. We tracked individuals daily movements (dental appointments, referesher trg, leave, etc.).

At my new unit, only me and the Chief Clerk have accounts, and he doesn't even know how to use it (I had to log-in using his account to make my account).
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2015, 13:31:47 »
For us, it is a necessary part that wouldn't apply to anyone not in a flying slot.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2015, 13:33:21 »
Right now we are wedded to paper because it's viewed as the only "real" or official document.  If we did better Information Management (supported by enabling Information Technology) we could simplify processes and eliminate lots of paper, and lots of low to no value added work.

The only recent (i.e. 3 years ago) use that I have had for a paper leave pass in North America was when crossing the border to the U.S.  When asked by USCBP what I did for a living I replied that I was Canadian military.  The officer asked if I was "on orders" or on leave.  I replied I was on leave and he asked to see my leave pass.  I produced it, he reviewed it and, in seconds, we parted ways.
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Offline Bzzliteyr

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2015, 15:08:40 »
The only recent (i.e. 3 years ago) use that I have had for a paper leave pass in North America was when crossing the border to the U.S.  When asked by USCBP what I did for a living I replied that I was Canadian military.  The officer asked if I was "on orders" or on leave.  I replied I was on leave and he asked to see my leave pass.  I produced it, he reviewed it and, in seconds, we parted ways.


Interesting, my interactions with border folks is handing over my mil ID when I hand ove rmy passport to assist with things. this usually results in a war story or two and I'm on my way.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2015, 15:54:53 »
On the naval side of things, that four hours was always from the point where you were contacted, not the start of a general recall.  If they never got a hold of you, you obviously never made it in and as far as I know, there were never any consequences for that.  I think the four hours may also have been based on the amount of time it took to flash up the boilers. It didn't matter how fast everybody got on board, it took a minimum of four hours before the ship was going to move regardless.  This no longer applies in our modern fleet of  gas turbines and diesel engines.

I am curious as to what has actually happened here.  The OP seems to have stopped responding.  A very good point has been made that it is only the CO who has authority to recall somebody from leave (and any approved absence from a place of duty is "leave" - no leave pass required) and he/she must order it personally.  If that is not the case, the amount of time it took the member to respond to an unlawful command is irrelevant.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2015, 20:01:17 »
Was that for any/all ships?  Ready duty ship?  I always assumed there was something similar for the RDS that we use for our Ready postures.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #70 on: November 26, 2015, 20:09:00 »
Interesting, my interactions with border folks is handing over my mil ID when I hand ove rmy passport to assist with things. this usually results in a war story or two and I'm on my way.

There was a long line up that day.  My last trip across (August - as a civvy law enforcement type now) resulted in exactly that - in both directions.
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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2015, 09:53:37 »
Was that for any/all ships?  Ready duty ship?  I always assumed there was something similar for the RDS that we use for our Ready postures.

Ready Duty Ship would normally have tighter restrictions - e.g. if you aren't going to be near a phone, you would need to contact the ship every four hours to see if there was a recall; only 10% of ship's company could be on out-of-area leave (i.e. not available for recall); certain folks (e.g. CO, XO, COXN, CERA) could not be on out-of-area leave; etc.
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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2015, 10:02:56 »
Ready Duty Ship would normally have tighter restrictions - e.g. if you aren't going to be near a phone, you would need to contact the ship every four hours to see if there was a recall;

I read some are expected ( required? ) to be near a phone, "The argument of my superior was that things are different because we are in the emergency services (i.e. base fire hall), and that the CF needs a reliable way of getting ahold of us when off-duty or on leave."
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 10:09:25 by mariomike »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #73 on: November 27, 2015, 10:09:48 »
Argument doesn't not make policy or regs though.  The QR & O, DAOD and Leave Policy Manual trump 'arguments'.
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Re: Maximum time to report in?
« Reply #74 on: November 27, 2015, 10:16:43 »
The QR & O, DAOD and Leave Policy Manual trump 'arguments'.

Not to disagree with you or  the QR & O, DAOD and Leave Policy Manual, but, "Ordered to "get a phone"." made for an interesting four-page discussion / "argument".  :)
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